Cap Skills for d20

[Aus_Snow]

I'm not arguing pro or con, but I suspect that in a competition, the RW good marksman/bad horseman will usually outshoot the good horseman/bad marksman- which would not be reflected in a cap skills system.

Whereas yeah, I'd probably disagree. In the cases where a Ride check (for example) would even need to be made, obviously (i.e., not just sitting still on a mild-mannered horse, or in similarly unchallenging situations).

And the reason I commented as I did, was that it seemed like you misunderstood cap skills in the first place, thinking that the secondary skill would be raised to the level of the cap skill, rather than (where applicable) simply lowered to it. Which isn't the case, of course. But yes, your post did look that way. To me, anyhow. *shrug*

A really good marksman galloping around on [and/or desperately trying to control] a horse, if they're not used to doing so, let alone shooting at the same time. . . yeah, I'd say they're pretty much stuffed. I doubt they'd be able to shoot much of anything. Or even necessarily get it together to shoot at all, if (for instance) we're talking about bows.

But, indeed, YMMV and so on. Essentially, I like the idea of this system alteration. I'm not completely sure of it yet, but to me it seems a lot more intuitive and elegant for actual play, than some of the more well-known alternatives.

Time will tell. When I've tried it out, before and after ironing some of the kinks from it, well I'll know for sure whether it's as good as it seems at this stage.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

A really good marksman galloping around on [and/or desperately trying to control] a horse, if they're not used to doing so, let alone shooting at the same time. . . yeah, I'd say they're pretty much stuffed. I doubt they'd be able to shoot much of anything. Or even necessarily get it together to shoot at all, if (for instance) we're talking about bows.

Ever watch biathalon?

Its a combo of 2 events- Cross-country skiing and marksmanship.

Now, they don't shoot while they move, but they DO shoot after skiing cross country. Or more accurately, they ski then shoot:

Wiki
A biathlon competition consists of a race in which contestants ski around a cross-country track, and where the total distance is broken up by either two or four shooting rounds, half in prone position, the other half standing. Depending on the shooting performance, extra distance or time is added to the contestant's total running distance/time. As in most races, the contestant with the shortest total time wins.

For each shooting round, the biathlete must hit five targets; each missed target must be "atoned for" in one of three ways, depending on the competition format:

* by skiing around a 150 metres (490 ft) penalty loop, typically taking 20–30 seconds for top-level biathletes to complete (running time depending on weather/snow conditions),
* by having one minute added to a skier's total time, or
* by having to use an "extra cartridge" (placed at the shooting range) to finish off the target; only three such "extras" are available for each round, and a penalty loop must be made for each of the targets left standing.

The target range shooting distance is 50 metres (160 ft). There are five circular targets to be hit in each shooting round. When shooting in the prone position the target diameter is 45 millimetres (1.8 in), when shooting in the standing position the target diameter is 115 millimetres (4.5 in).

This means that when they set up to shoot, their hearts are pumping and they're full of adrenaline, etc.- very hard to steady the hand and eyes to aim at that target downrange...

And yet they do. Typically, top biathletes will only miss 0-1 of the 5 targets at a stop, and rarely more than 2 for medal contention.

Even though its not the same as shooting from horseback, I'd still bet on that kind marksman over the horseman. They know how to shoot and aim between their heartbeats and breaths- adding the rhythm of the galloping horse is something they should be able to account for more easily than the amateur shootist.

(Again, IMHO, of course!)

 

[Merlin's Shadow]

Ever watch biathalon?

Its a combo of 2 events- Cross-country skiing and marksmanship.

Now, they don't shoot while they move, but they DO shoot after skiing cross country. Or more accurately, they ski then shoot:

Except that the person in Aus_Snow's scenario has trained in only one of the two skills whereas the person in your scenario is well-trained in both skills.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Except that the person in Aus_Snow's scenario has trained in only one of the two skills whereas the person in your scenario is well-trained in both skills.

True, but almost all top marksmen are taught to shoot between breaths & heartbeats (or otherwise calm & steady themselves) to improve accuracy- the biathaletes are just among the most trained at marksmanship after extreme exertion.

 

[Beginning of the End]

To me, this just seems amazingly elegant - it cuts out the need for many modifiers you might otherwise have to remember/calculate and impose, and it *makes sense*. Well, to specify again, to me it does.

That is every elegant. I like it a lot. It's particularly nice because it eliminates the need for multiple skill checks in those situations, which means the probability is less wonky while still taking into account all of the relevant skills.

One example in 3.x would be Hide/Move Silently and Listen/Spot checks. Instead of making a pair of checks every time you want to sneak past, you just make a capped check. This leaves you with the utility gained from having different methods of concealment/perception, but without the "good luck ever sneaking anywhere" problems inherent in making multiple checks.

(Although, honestly, I've long since eliminated that problem by simply going to a Perception vs. Stealth house rule.)

Hmm... Although you could also theoretically adapt such a mechanic to group activities. Instead of needing to make five Stealth checks and eight Perception checks every time the group tries to sneak past someone, you just make a check of the lowest Stealth vs. highest Perception.

Problem 1: There is no possiblility of opening the door but also waking the occupant. This could be interpreted in the absolute determination of not making a noise as you try to trick the lock.

The Ride example does seem like the best one out of the box: There's a clear causal relationship where the failure to control the horse has a negative impact on your weapon skill.

Call that a hard cap.

For a soft cap (like the Move Silently/Open Lock) example, the Move Silently check is providing a soft cap on the Open Lock check. You can always ignore that cap and try to open the lock normally. However, this only works if the MS DC is lower than the Open Lock DC.

Yeah, that seems problematic.

The former can control the horse with the slightest pressure from his knees, but if can't hit a bullseye from 30 feet without extreme luck from a stable platform, how will being on horseback improve his aim?

It wouldn't. The Ride skill caps the weapon skill, it doesn't improve it if it's lower than the Ride skill.

The problem I see is that you've eliminated the difference between:

- Ride 10, Weapon 15
- Ride 10, Weapon 25

Shouldn't the latter guy be better at shooting from horseback than the former?

 

[Nellisir]

The problem I see is that you've eliminated the difference between:

- Ride 10, Weapon 15
- Ride 10, Weapon 25

Shouldn't the latter guy be better at shooting from horseback than the former?

Subtract the lower from the higher.
EDIT: NEvermind, that makes no sense whatsoever. You'd turn a bonus into a penalty.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It wouldn't. The Ride skill caps the weapon skill, it doesn't improve it if it's lower than the Ride skill.

You missed my clarification upthread that I was being a bit snarky in that part of that post.

The problem I see is that you've eliminated the difference between:

- Ride 10, Weapon 15
- Ride 10, Weapon 25

Shouldn't the latter guy be better at shooting from horseback than the former?

Yes- that is yet another part of the problem with a cap system that I was alluding to.

 

[Knightfall]

That's an interesting thought but I would go a step further. You could have a small number of broad skills, and then specialty skills within them. When using a specialty skill you could use either your specialty skill modifier or 1/2 your broad skill. So if you have 5 ranks in the handle animal broad skill and a 16 charisma and 14 dexterity you would have a +4 modifier to any specialty skill within the handle animal broad skill. So a character with no ranks in ride would be able to make a ride check at +4. Or he could put up to 5 ranks in ride (equal to his ranks in handle animal) and make a ride check at +7.

I'm pretty sure the Alternity skill system worked this way. I can't remember 100% though. I'll have to look at my Alternity PHB.

 

[slwoyach]

I'm pretty sure the Alternity skill system worked this way. I can't remember 100% though. I'll have to look at my Alternity PHB.

Alternity was a little different. You either had a broad skill or you did not have a broad skill, there were no skill ranks. Once you purchased a broad skill you could start purchasing ranks in the skills that are part of the broad skill (i can't remember what they called these narrower skills.) If you had no ranks in a skill but had the broad skill I think you could use any skill under it with a straight ability check, unless the skill specifies that you cannot.