Yes, personally if I were going to cap 4e it'd be at 20th. I think though that you can just run Epic as "extended Paragon", a lot of DMs seem to do that - Paragon style play just with bigger numbers.
Capping a game at 11th-level
- Thread starter Kzach
- Start date
Yes, personally if I were going to cap 4e it'd be at 20th. I think though that you can just run Epic as "extended Paragon", a lot of DMs seem to do that - Paragon style play just with bigger numbers.
Havrik Stoneskimmer
Adventurer
I'm sketching out my campaign with a good ending point at the end of heroic tier, with some loose ends left hanging. So if my group wants to keep playing this campaign, we will, but if everyone wants to move on to something else it will still be a satisfying ending.
I think of the natural world (prime material plane?) as a heroic tier sort of place, for the most part. My expectation is that paragon tier will involve extended adventures in the Feywild and Shadowfell, and perhaps more exotic locations in the natural world like deep in the mountains or jungles, or the Underdark. Epic tier in my mind will stretch across the full range of the planes, from the heavenly dominions of the Astral Sea to the depths of the Abyss.
That's how I see the three tiers breaking down in terms of setting.
I think of the natural world (prime material plane?) as a heroic tier sort of place, for the most part. My expectation is that paragon tier will involve extended adventures in the Feywild and Shadowfell, and perhaps more exotic locations in the natural world like deep in the mountains or jungles, or the Underdark. Epic tier in my mind will stretch across the full range of the planes, from the heavenly dominions of the Astral Sea to the depths of the Abyss.
That's how I see the three tiers breaking down in terms of setting.
malraux
First Post
I ran a group through high paragon and didn't find it all that bad at all, especial relative to mid-teens in 3e.
That said, if I wanted to cap leveling at 10/11, here's what I would do: XP gains still matter. Every time you gain enough XP to level to 12, instead, you'd get just pseudo-level. You wouldn't get hp, level bonus or class based powers, but you would get feats, ability score boosts, retraining options, and paragon path abilities. So there would be a small bit of advancement at these levels, but the power difference with a level 10 character and one with 10 pseudo levels would be very small, a point or two of AC, a few more powers and abilities, etc.
That said, if I wanted to cap leveling at 10/11, here's what I would do: XP gains still matter. Every time you gain enough XP to level to 12, instead, you'd get just pseudo-level. You wouldn't get hp, level bonus or class based powers, but you would get feats, ability score boosts, retraining options, and paragon path abilities. So there would be a small bit of advancement at these levels, but the power difference with a level 10 character and one with 10 pseudo levels would be very small, a point or two of AC, a few more powers and abilities, etc.
fuzzlewump
Explorer
That would indeed be interesting, unfortunately for me I can't recall a 4th edition game I've run or played in thats gone beyond ~5 sessions or so.
That is a bloody brilliant idea.
So far (and I will admit I haven't DMed or played past around 15th level) I have seen no need to cap levels.
In older editions (and I have played pretty much all of them over the last 35 years) a level cap seemed to me to be necessary as the game devolved into an endless battle of super powers where your only real competition came from NPCs, a very limited number of monsters and gods. Virtually without exception our games came to grinding halt at around 12th or 13th level.
For me one of the real attractions of 4th was the idea that it had flattened the curve regarding leveling and there was now lots to do (even for a night of casual gaming) at the higher levels. As far as I can tell this has proven to be the case.
That being said there seems to be a bit more work required from the DM as the characters move from Heroic to Paragon levels and begin to become shapers of the world rather than shaped by the world. As I said I haven't had the opportunity to play beyond paragon as of yet so I can't speak to that.
In older editions (and I have played pretty much all of them over the last 35 years) a level cap seemed to me to be necessary as the game devolved into an endless battle of super powers where your only real competition came from NPCs, a very limited number of monsters and gods. Virtually without exception our games came to grinding halt at around 12th or 13th level.
For me one of the real attractions of 4th was the idea that it had flattened the curve regarding leveling and there was now lots to do (even for a night of casual gaming) at the higher levels. As far as I can tell this has proven to be the case.
That being said there seems to be a bit more work required from the DM as the characters move from Heroic to Paragon levels and begin to become shapers of the world rather than shaped by the world. As I said I haven't had the opportunity to play beyond paragon as of yet so I can't speak to that.
Skyscraper
Adventurer
Myself, I prefer the heroic play to the high-level play (for the little I did of the latter).
I haven't actually "capped" my campaigns to any given level. What I do is try to convey a sense to the PCs of what power level the others in their environment have, compared to theirs. They know there are no level-30 or even level-20 people walking around town. As DM, I don't think any such NPC exists, but I don't need to determine that. I also think that my two campaigns will end in the early paragon levels, but I'm not sure where exactly and I don't need to determine that until we're there.
I guess my point is: you don't need to set an artificial cap to your campaign (unless you wish to change the ruleset as of a certain given level as suggested in earlier posts); you can simply roll with the game and have it end when you believe it's cool to end it, story-wise.
I haven't actually "capped" my campaigns to any given level. What I do is try to convey a sense to the PCs of what power level the others in their environment have, compared to theirs. They know there are no level-30 or even level-20 people walking around town. As DM, I don't think any such NPC exists, but I don't need to determine that. I also think that my two campaigns will end in the early paragon levels, but I'm not sure where exactly and I don't need to determine that until we're there.
I guess my point is: you don't need to set an artificial cap to your campaign (unless you wish to change the ruleset as of a certain given level as suggested in earlier posts); you can simply roll with the game and have it end when you believe it's cool to end it, story-wise.
You don't *need* to, but I find it can be very useful for campaign design to declare that eg this is an E10 world, no PCs or NPCs over 10th level. That way you and the players know that at 10th they're top of the heap, no uber-NPCs above them, and it may be time to look at retiring & becoming part of the fabric of the world.
Traveon Wyvernspur
First Post
I agree with a few of the other posters about having it capped before Epic Tier. To me the heroic and paragon tiers were amazing, then when the players hit 21st level + things just get totally insane. They are way too powerful and it takes a lot more time to design encounters that flow nicely and are even challenging to a player of that level. They are taking on primordials and gods, they are traveling the planes and hopscotching around the world at a whim. I think the other thing that really turned me off to DM'ing Epic was all the dang conditions that keep stacking by players, it turns combat into a super slow grind and 3-4 rounds of combat per HOUR is just silly. If a 5th edition ever comes out I hope they streamline combat and conditions especially in the highest levels of the game to make it more fun for everyone involved.
Just my 2 coppers.
Just my 2 coppers.
I just want to clarify: its not that I find Epic play unsatisfying- I haven't ever played Epic- but rather that I find the options in the Paragon level are still attractive to me as a player. IOW, capping a game below Paragon or before the characters are on the threshold of Epic cuts off a part of the game I'd like to experiences.
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