D&D 4E Careful Shot vs Twin Strike....No Contest (4e spoilers)

[KevinF]

As we get more experience with the reality of 4E tactics, I suspect that the value of careful shot becomes more apparent. For example, I might allow careful shot as a readied action, but not twin strike. Or you might be getting a bonus to your attack from some other source, such as a warlord or cleric power that increase the damage of your NEXT attack, making careful shot more attractive.

 

[FS]

Even if you had +9 Dex Mod in higher levels, it still wouldn't make a +3 [W] + Dex Mod (much?) better than the twinstrike. If i understand it correctly, you can gain TWO TIMES your magicweaponbonus, featbonus and other boni. I haven't done the math, but i still think twinstrike is preferable to the modded carefull shot.

 

[Cadfan]

I think the real solution is to not have two different at will powers that both accomplish the same thing. Trying to balance Careful Shot versus Twin Strike is a fool's errand. Its like you're trying to use linear algebra to create two different equations that both yield the same outcome, but with all of the terms in the equations as variables that change depending on character level. The chances that you're going to get the two abilities to balance in that context are... not good.

Instead, change one of the abilities significantly, so that it is no longer directly competing with the other. How about making Careful Shot a +5 to attack, normal damage, but it costs your standard action, your move action, your minor action, and you can't use an immediate action until your next turn?

 

[Stalker0]

I can't tell if that's unintentionally amusing, or blatant irony.

You don't want us to compare powers from other classes... so let's compare powers from other classes!

What I'm saying is that people were starting to go off and compare all sorts of fighter powers with each other. Its one thing to compare a fighter power to twin strike or careful shot, it gives us a measure of CS or TS's power. Its another to compare two powers that have nothing to do with CS or TS. That's a valid discussion....for another thread.

As far as setting the roles for the two powers, I do agree that CS and TS in a lot of ways do the same thing, but there are ways to give them different niches.

In the attack +3, 1[W] + dex model I gave above, CS becomes a damage attack. This is the power I use if I want damage from my at will. TS becomes your accuracy power, this is the at-will I use if I really want to hit this turn (like killing mooks, where damage doesn't matter), or if I need to hit two people, etc.

However, I really liked the suggestion of making careful shot 1[W] + str (or dex) + wisdom. That fits with wisdom as a secondary stat for the ranger, which none of the other at wills do. And it fits with careful shot being a single powerful attack vs twin strike being your low damage high accuracy attack.

I'll run some numbers on that later and see how it balances out.

 

[Stalker0]

Its not all about min maxing...

What if you dont want 2 attacks, what if thats not what your character is all about ? What happens if you want to size up and enemy. Can't really refute that.

A valid point. However, in my opinion, the very spirit of balance is to allow players to play different, valid options for their characters and feel that mechanically they are not being penalized for their choice.

For the ranger, we are saying that the guy who wants to play the careful sniper and the guy who plays the machine guy archer should both be viable. CS as written does not provide that, the careful sniper is significantly underpowered compared to the machine gun, and we have evidence to prove it.

So the goal is for both styles to be different and viable, so both types of characters can be happy with their choices, both from an RP perspective, and from a mechanical one.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

I like the idea of adding double your dex/str modifier to the attack roll with careful strike and dealing 1[W] damage. That way, the power scales up in accuracy but not damage.

Alternately, just a flat +4 to hit and 1[W] damage would probably work fine too.

 

[Styracosaurus]

I like the idea of Careful Shot having a higher plus to hit rather than increasing its damage. You could always add in other effects that affect a sniping type shot; such as ignoring certain cover or somesuch.

Twin Strike should be damage.
Careful Shot should be about connecting with hard to hit foes.

 

[Vendark]

In that case, the option available shouldn't suck.

To be fair, I don't think Careful Attack sucks, it's just that Twin Strike is so good that it's usually a better option.

The Fighter at-will Sure Strike is effectively the same power as Careful Attack, but it's not getting anywhere near the same amount of flack because there's not another fighter at-will that steps on its toes.

 

[Kraydak]

To be fair, I don't think Careful Attack sucks, it's just that Twin Strike is so good that it's usually a better option.

Sorry. Careful Attack is just plain bad (compares poorly to a basic attack).

The Fighter at-will Sure Strike is effectively the same power as Careful Attack, but it's not getting anywhere near the same amount of flack because there's not another fighter at-will that steps on its toes.

Sure Strike is, also, just plain bad. Cleave is (vastly) better vs. minions and Reaping Strike (or heck, a basic atatck) is (vastly) better vs. anyone else (even with only 1handers). Sure Strike should be getting flack.

 

[Vendark]

Sorry. Careful Attack is just plain bad (compares poorly to a basic attack).

It offers versatility. It hits more often than a basic attack, period. It may not offer as much expected damage round by round as the basic attack, but sometimes damage now is more important than damage later. Besides which, some monsters have abilities that trigger on misses. I don't think it's as clear-cut as you claim.