D&D 4E Careful Shot vs Twin Strike....No Contest (4e spoilers)
- Thread starter Stalker0
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chaotix42
First Post
Actually Samurai, your reading opens a potential abuse, I think. If you consider the Weapon entry in many Exploits to be seperate from the Hit entry, what of powers like Silverstep?
Hit: 2[W] + Str mod dmg and you push the target 1 square.
Weapon: If you're wielding a spear or polearm you push the target a # of squares = your Dex mod.
I think the intent here is that with a polearm you can move the target more squares on a hit than you could with other weapons. But in your interpretation, if I'm wielding a polearm I should be able to move the target even if I miss. Am I correct?
Hit: 2[W] + Str mod dmg and you push the target 1 square.
Weapon: If you're wielding a spear or polearm you push the target a # of squares = your Dex mod.
I think the intent here is that with a polearm you can move the target more squares on a hit than you could with other weapons. But in your interpretation, if I'm wielding a polearm I should be able to move the target even if I miss. Am I correct?
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Okay, this thread has gotten WAY off topic.
Guys, we are comparing careful shot and twin strike in this thread. We are not going through every fighter power in the game. Do that in another thread.
Back to the topic on hand. People are asking a logical question, is it that careful shot is too weak, or is twin shot too good? For that answer, let's turn to other classes and see what they have.
The rogue is the most comparable, both are strikers that use weapons. The rogue's piercing shot is a weapon attack vs reflex. The difference between Reflex and AC varies widely among the monsters. Some have as high as a +6 or so difference. But I think the vast majority have at least a +2 difference. And the rogue gets to keep his dex bonus to damage.
Then there's the paladin's valiant strike, which is another "sure hitting" ability. The paladin gets at least a +1 to attack, and will often have a +2. Further, he could have as high as +6 or even +8. And once again the paladin gets to keep his str bonus to damage.
Comparing those models, changing the ranger's careful shot to +2 to attack, regular damage seems completely reasonable. And it also makes sense from a flavor perspective. The ranger gets to add his dex bonus with a ranged weapon because of his accuracy. A "careful" shot should be highly accurate (ie dex is added to damage). While a twin shot, where you are literally firing two arrows as fast as you can, would not have that accuracy and so no dex mod.
I ran the numbers with this assumption in mind, and its almost there. If we assume a +4 dex and no hunter's quarry, careful shot is always averaging more damage than twin strike, but only about .3 more. However, twin strike's accuracy is higher. You are more consistently hitting with twin strike, and you have the option is hitting two targets, making it a much better mook killer. However, when you add in hunter's quarry, twin strike takes over again.
So one more tweak to careful shot. We now add +3 to the attack roll. With that in mind, careful shot takes back the damage crown, average about .5 damage more than twin shot. Twin shot still carries the advantages of higher accuracy and mook killing, and I think both are now fairly competitive with each other.
With that in mind, I think changing careful shot to attack +3, damage 1[w] + dex should solve the problem.
Guys, we are comparing careful shot and twin strike in this thread. We are not going through every fighter power in the game. Do that in another thread.
Back to the topic on hand. People are asking a logical question, is it that careful shot is too weak, or is twin shot too good? For that answer, let's turn to other classes and see what they have.
The rogue is the most comparable, both are strikers that use weapons. The rogue's piercing shot is a weapon attack vs reflex. The difference between Reflex and AC varies widely among the monsters. Some have as high as a +6 or so difference. But I think the vast majority have at least a +2 difference. And the rogue gets to keep his dex bonus to damage.
Then there's the paladin's valiant strike, which is another "sure hitting" ability. The paladin gets at least a +1 to attack, and will often have a +2. Further, he could have as high as +6 or even +8. And once again the paladin gets to keep his str bonus to damage.
Comparing those models, changing the ranger's careful shot to +2 to attack, regular damage seems completely reasonable. And it also makes sense from a flavor perspective. The ranger gets to add his dex bonus with a ranged weapon because of his accuracy. A "careful" shot should be highly accurate (ie dex is added to damage). While a twin shot, where you are literally firing two arrows as fast as you can, would not have that accuracy and so no dex mod.
I ran the numbers with this assumption in mind, and its almost there. If we assume a +4 dex and no hunter's quarry, careful shot is always averaging more damage than twin strike, but only about .3 more. However, twin strike's accuracy is higher. You are more consistently hitting with twin strike, and you have the option is hitting two targets, making it a much better mook killer. However, when you add in hunter's quarry, twin strike takes over again.
So one more tweak to careful shot. We now add +3 to the attack roll. With that in mind, careful shot takes back the damage crown, average about .5 damage more than twin shot. Twin shot still carries the advantages of higher accuracy and mook killing, and I think both are now fairly competitive with each other.
With that in mind, I think changing careful shot to attack +3, damage 1[w] + dex should solve the problem.
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chaotix42
First Post
Hmmm, sounds reasonable. I think that will be my 1st house rule.
On a side note, word is that the MM pdf contains errors and omissions not found in the print version. I wonder if the PHB and the DMG are in the same boat? I get my books tomorrow so I'll be sure to check on this matter.
On a side note, word is that the MM pdf contains errors and omissions not found in the print version. I wonder if the PHB and the DMG are in the same boat? I get my books tomorrow so I'll be sure to check on this matter.
jeffhartsell
First Post
Stalker0 said:
I was going along these same lines, but then careful shot totally blows twin strike away once you get past +4 stat bonus. At 30th you'll have max 28 dex for +9 bonus. +3 & 2[W]+9 is way better than 2[W] x2.
My thought was stick with +2 but make it [W]+WIS (or INT). Wisdom will scale a bit if you want to go with that build and tank STR, but most builds would keep WIS modest in the +2 to +4 range which keeps it in line with twin strike.
IMO +DEX is too good at the high levels when combined with the bonus to hit.
Edit: Really, a flat +2 [W]+4 makes Careful Shot vs Twin Strike perfectly balanced. At 50% to hit they are nearly identical. At high prob to hit then TS is better and at lower prob to hit CS becomes better. And this is assuming a d10 weapon. If you go with d8 or lower then the +4 damage would be a better option. Trying to twin strike with daggers is suboptimal.
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