D&D 4E Careful Shot vs Twin Strike....No Contest (4e spoilers)

[Kraydak]

How many exactly? I know Shadow Wasp Strike and Dance of Steel have been identified. What are the others?

Well, Rain of Blows is awesome (fighter Enc. 3). It trumps Armor-Piercing Thrust (usually... it is, mostly technically, possible for Armor-Piercing Thrust to be more useful in certain situations), Crushing Blow (yes, even with a hammer), Precise Strike (snicker) and Exacting Strike (Enc. 17).

Edit: Rain of Blows, when used w/light blade, spear or flail and a dex of 15+, compares well to No Mercy (fighter lvl 29 daily). If facing a target the fighter needs a 14-15ish to hit, the difference between the two abilities pretty much comes down to the critical hit mechanics (which I am too lazy to work out).

 

[Makaze]

Well, Rain of Blows is awesome (fighter Enc. 3). It trumps Armor-Piercing Thrust (usually... it is, mostly technically, possible for Armor-Piercing Thrust to be more useful in certain situations), Crushing Blow (yes, even with a hammer), Precise Strike (snicker) and Exacting Strike (Enc. 17).

Edit: Rain of Blows, when used w/light blade, spear or flail and a dex of 15+, compares well to No Mercy (fighter lvl 29 daily). If facing a target the fighter needs a 14-15ish to hit, the difference between the two abilities pretty much comes down to the critical hit mechanics (which I am too lazy to work out).

Ummmmm not so much...
Armor-Piercing Thrust hits Reflex and not AC, a rare and good thing for the fighter. Precise and Exacting are for hitting very high AC value targets, different and maybe situational but not terrible. Crushing ain't all that great but again not terrible. They're not blown out of the water like Careful Strike is by Twin Strike.

Rain of blows does 1[W] + Str to three targets with a specific weapon and dex requirement. No Mercy does 7[W] +Str to one and doesn't care what weapon you're using. How are those even comparable?

 

[Kraydak]

Ummmmm not so much...
Armor-Piercing Thrust hits Reflex and not AC, a rare and good thing for the fighter. Precise and Exacting are for hitting very high AC value targets, different and maybe situational but not terrible. Crushing ain't all that great but again not terrible. They're not blown out of the water like Careful Strike is by Twin Strike.

The multiple hit aspect of Rain of Blows (and the resulting increased accuracy AND multiple counting of Str/Enhancement/Weapon Focus) trumps the extra accuracy of APT/Precise/Exacting.

Rain of blows does 1[W] + Str to three targets with a specific weapon and dex requirement. No Mercy does 7[W] +Str to one and doesn't care what weapon you're using. How are those even comparable?

At lvl 29, a fighter is looking at about +8 (strenght) +6 (enhancement) +3 (weapon focus) in bonus damage on hits. With a flail (d10) this means that the bonus damage roughly equals 3W. Any damage bonuses I missed count in RoB's favor.

Rain of Blows deals two hits to the primary target. It can trigger secondary hits on the primary target OR someone else. Therefore, No Mercy does about 10W while RoB does about 8W+secondary hits. At a 25% hit rate, they are equal up to crits (which I think favors RoB even with only +6d6 in magical crit damage, rather than the +6d12 from a vicious weapon).

 

[Makaze]

The multiple hit aspect of Rain of Blows (and the resulting increased accuracy AND multiple counting of Str/Enhancement/Weapon Focus) trumps the extra accuracy of APT/Precise/Exacting.

Agreed on easy to hit things, not as much on hard to hit things. There's a number where one is better than the other.

At lvl 29, a fighter is looking at about +8 (strenght) +6 (enhancement) +3 (weapon focus) in bonus damage on hits. With a flail (d10) this means that the bonus damage roughly equals 3W. Any damage bonuses I missed count in RoB's favor.

Rain of Blows deals two hits to the primary target. It can trigger secondary hits on the primary target OR someone else. Therefore, No Mercy does about 10W while RoB does about 8W+secondary hits. At a 25% hit rate, they are equal up to crits (which I think favors RoB even with only +6d6 in magical crit damage, rather than the +6d12 from a vicious weapon).

Hmmmmm compelling. Seems that multiple hits quickly trump high multipliers due to stacking bonuses. Makes me wonder why ability mods and enhancements aren't multiplied as well.
The other powers seem to be fairly well balanced and in relation to each other. But
it looks like Rain of Blows if simply fairly broken, at least as a level 3 encounter power.

 

[MindWanderer]

I wonder if RoB was meant to just be one primary and one secondary attack, and not two primaries which each spawn secondaries? It's a problem similar to Battle Pyres.

 

[Kraydak]

Agreed on easy to hit things, not as much on hard to hit things. There's a number where one is better than the other.

The only "better accuracy" power which can beat Rain of Blows is Armor Piercing Thrust. Note that Armor Piercing Thrust (when used with an appropriate weapon) matches or surpasses Exacting Strike. A starting 16 dex, pumped, gives a +5 at lvl 17, which is >1W for light blades/spears. Further, Str+5 vs Reflex beats Str+6 vs A.

Hmmmmm compelling. Seems that multiple hits quickly trump high multipliers due to stacking bonuses. Makes me wonder why ability mods and enhancements aren't multiplied as well.
The other powers seem to be fairly well balanced and in relation to each other. But
it looks like Rain of Blows if simply fairly broken, at least as a level 3 encounter power.

RoB isn't ever jawdroppingly overpowered in absolute terms, exactly. It just scales *really really* nicely with level because it double dips (or better) the various bonuses to damage. This results in RoB being always good/better than level appropriate stuff, but not really much much better (except against moderate AC opponents, with 15dex and a flail/lightblade/spear). RoB is, of course, stupidly good as a whole, and whoever let it slip through the play-testing process/editing process needs to be properly ashamed.

 

[Saitou]

I wonder if RoB was meant to just be one primary and one secondary attack, and not two primaries which each spawn secondaries? It's a problem similar to Battle Pyres.

This is correct. When a power mentions "two attacks" it includes any potential secondary attacks. If it didn't, it would say under Hit "for each attack".

 

[chaotix42]

I wonder if RoB was meant to just be one primary and one secondary attack, and not two primaries which each spawn secondaries? It's a problem similar to Battle Pyres.

I'm fairly certain that you don't get secondary hits for every primary hit. If you look through all of the powers that have a Secondary Target or Secondary Targets listed they denote "Every creature..." "Each enemy..." "All creatures..." "Two creatures..." "One creature..."

So IMO things like Battle Pyre and Rain of Blows which have a Secondary Target of "One creature" only get one secondary attack.

*EDIT* Actually, RoB only says "... make a secondary attack." The 2nd attack is conditional on what weapon you're wielding, not if you hit or miss. So, again, just 1 secondary attack.

 

[Makaze]

The only "better accuracy" power which can beat Rain of Blows is Armor Piercing Thrust. Note that Armor Piercing Thrust (when used with an appropriate weapon) matches or surpasses Exacting Strike. A starting 16 dex, pumped, gives a +5 at lvl 17, which is >1W for light blades/spears. Further, Str+5 vs Reflex beats Str+6 vs A.

But both RoB and APT only works with light blades and spears (and flails for RoB). Exacting could "in theory" be a decent choice for say a 2H maul fighter. Not that I actually think it is... a 2[W] vs. Reflex + disarm seems way way better. And if something is taking 18+ to hit then exactings bonus would outweigh the multiple strikes of RoB.

I wonder if RoB was meant to just be one primary and one secondary attack, and not two primaries which each spawn secondaries? It's a problem similar to Battle Pyres.

Wondering the same thing. It's not terrible if you only make 1 attack with a single secondary if wielding the right weapon. It weighs in at 2[W] + 2X modifiers total damage, still even if not better than the other level 3 encounter powers and you can split the damage between two foes.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

4e has a lot of non-upgrades. Note also that Shadow Wasp Strike is worse than Can and Run or Thundertusk Boar Strike in damage dealing *except* against foes with Resistance>your Str or Dex+weapon enhancement+weapon focus+similar (and even then the interaction with Crits and HQ can sink SWS). C&R and TBS both also have decent kickers and can be used against multiple targets...

There ARE circumstances where one is a better choice than another though. If your wisdom modifier is poor, then shifting one square is kind of useless. If you get a bonus to your next attack roll, then having one attack that did more damage might be better than 2 for less.

Plus, pure mathematics only factors into part of it. I know plenty of people that would have no idea that 2 attack rolls have a better chance to hit than 1 with a bonus.

In fact, when some of the powers started becoming available and one of my friends saw some of them, his first comment was that he didn't know why anyone would take a power that did 2 attacks for 1[w] damage when you could do one attack that did 2[w]. Of course you'd want to only roll once for more damage, you might miss with one of your two attacks if you rolled twice.(that's what he said at least, I argued that at least you'd have half damage if you missed with one, but he wasn't convinced)

It's just that a lot of people would rather take a larger chance of missing in exchange for big numbers on their damage(and yes, I know that 1[w]|+str plus 1[w]+str is more damage than 2[w]+str, but most people don't realize that)

The more classes I examine the powers of in detail, the less impressed I am with 4e's playtesting/editing. They may have claimed "no Dodges" as a design goal, but boy did they fail.

The idea of the "no Dodges" was that they didn't want people to have to remember to apply a bonus every round when it wasn't significant to begin with. All of the numbers have been reduced so that a +1 or +2 IS significant everywhere. And there's no powers that say "remember to apply a bonus every round, if you don't apply it, you don't get it."