Caster level in Grim Tales example

[RangerWickett]

From a gameplay perspective it's not a problem. It's only a problem from a world perspective. If I can heal an infinite number of injuries, or create an infinite amount of food, I'll change the world.

Okay, the food thing I can fix by saying that food won't stay around after the spell's duration, but that almost goes against some traditional types of magic that conjure up food -- particularly at fey parties. The healing thing . . . well, the easy solution would be to go the Wheel of Time route and have healing just convert lethal damage into nonlethal damage. Except that, just my luck, d20 Modern doesn't use nonlethal damage. And even that doesn't keep hospitals from going out of business.

Maybe I just have snarky players. When in the last campaign they were 13th level and were told about a threat to the world, they asked why the 20th level people in the world weren't dealing with it. For the sake of verisimilitude, some magic can't be used an unlimited amount of times.

Hmm. Maybe I should just make healing a lot harder to acquire. That would fit with the idea that healing really is a miracle, even compared to other magic. I mean, d20 Modern games get along well enough without healing now, so why not make healing spells not be available until 5th level, and then only have it be a few dice of healing?

Being able at 5th level to fire 3d6 energy blasts (about the safe limit) is not too powerful in a setting that has guns. Sure, at 15th level you could manage 13d6 energy blasts at will, but at that level you might just have access to helicopters and tanks. *shrug* Maybe I just convinced myself of a problem that wasn't there. I probably just need to up the DCs for a few problem spells, and leave the bulk of them available as is.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Invoke Energy
The target creature touched suffers energy damage of a type chosen by the caster (acid, cold, electricity, fire, sonic). Because the spell requires an attack roll, the victim does not receive a saving throw. The burst of energy is instantaneous. The spell gains the appropriate energy descriptor.

If you modify the final spell level by +1, you may choose the [force] energy descriptor.

If you modify the final spell level by +1, and the spell has a range greater than touch, you may add the area of effect modification. Choose one of the following areas of effect, based on the spell’s range:

• Bolt: A line 5’ wide, extending from the caster to the limit of the spell’s range (close or medium).
• Burst: A burst has a 20’ radius, appearing at any point within range (close, medium, or long).
• Cone: You may change the area of effect to a cone, originating at the caster. Cone ranges are 15’ (close), 30’ (medium), and 60’ (long).
• Cylinder: A cylinder has a 10’ radius, and is 30’ high. It appears at any point within range (close, medium, or long).
• Selected Targets: The caster chooses one or more targets (up to 1 target per caster level), no two of which may be more than 30’ apart. The energy created blasts those targets specifically.

An area of effect spell no longer requires an attack roll, but all targets in the area of effect receive a saving throw (usually Reflex) for half damage.

Invoke Energy
Level: 0
Range: Touch
Duration: Instantaneous

Effect DC Spell Level
1 die per caster level (5 dice max) 15 ½
1 die per caster level (10 dice max) 20 2
1 die per caster level (15 dice max) 25 4
1 die per caster level (20 dice max) 30 6
1 die per caster level (25 dice max) 30 8

Free Modifications (see below1)
Range increase (standard, up to long)2 • •
Increase base damage die from d6 to d8 +½ +½
Final Modifications
Change to area of effect +2 +1
Change energy type to force +2 +1

1 The caster may choose any number of these modifications whose total does not exceed the spell level, at no additional cost.
2 A spell whose range is increased beyond touch changes from a touch attack to a ranged touch attack or ray (caster’s choice). In addition, a spell with a range greater than touch (close, medium, or long) may choose the area of effect modification.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Here's one of my problems, with playtesting, with a Skill DC based system (although I haven't playtested Wulf's, but I'd sho' like to).

Too many variables.
Too much variance.

Between Skill Focus, Ability Scores, possibility to add Savant (if there), max ranks exceeding level: By 5th level you have situations where most of the lower "high" DCs are consistantly reachable.

Of course you add penalties in there as well, but to me it eventually begs the question: Why the skill roll at all? It might add a moment of nail-biting, but it's usually the PENALTY that keeps people from doing whatever they're going to do, at least as far as I've seen.

The most effective method I've playtested for keeping people from using spells AT ALL was to spread different sorts of ability drain across the spell. No way to reduce it, no rolls needed to cast: You can cast Destroy My Foes whenever you want to, but your character will be a drooling idiot for a week thereafter. I've never seen somebody chew their fingers about casting a spell as much as then.

With Black Company the DCs have done one thing: Denied spells to the player. But not quite the way I thought they would. And, really, I should have thought of it ... instead it becomes easiest to do one thing and one thing REALLY WELL: Dish out damage. If DCs are hard to make, the DCs worth making are the ones that blast your foes to splinders. All that fancy crud like utility spells just aren't worth it. If they're hard to cast, then concentrate on the hard to cast stuff that does direct damage. The only thing that limits his ability to do damage is his ability to take the penalties associated with it.

Don't get me wrong, I love the CONCEPT of skill based casting, but I think it has some issues.

EDIT: I think this same problem exists with the core of GT's current casting system. Casting is so HARD that unless you don't give them access to combat spells, the only spells that are worth the chance of getting totally buggered by the penalties are the spells that deal direct damage. You can burn your Str for Protection from Evil or Burning Hands ... save it for Burning Hands. Utility spells get more and more relegated to the "between adventures" times when the damage isn't going to be directly crippling. The difficult Caster Level Check, then, becomes something that makes the player cast only a single type of spell. (which you then have to deny to the players, for the most part, to force them to do something else)

--fje

 

[GlassJaw]

Utility spells get more and more relegated to the "between adventures" times when the damage isn't going to be directly crippling.

Well if you are casting buff spells between encounters, you can also increase the casting time to help you out.

 

[BryonD]

Can you clarify how spell range modifiers work?

Is it correct that in order to increase range beyond touch you must create a high enough level spell and then actually changing range is simply an option based on whether or not you are willing to "spend" the extra DC? (of course you must do so to get to area effects, but thats a separate matter)

Would a L0 (Level 1/2 by this system) Close range spell (say ray of frost) be doable?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

EDIT: I think this same problem exists with the core of GT's current casting system. Casting is so HARD that unless you don't give them access to combat spells, the only spells that are worth the chance of getting totally buggered by the penalties are the spells that deal direct damage.

Perhaps subconsciously that's why I make such an effort to control spell access so that the "utility" spells are truly useful.

I've never seen anyone fail a caster level check, and I have yet to give a caster "Detect Magic" who didn't use it-- that's right, even in a low magic game. Detect Magic, Augury, Contact Other Plane-- crowd pleasers.

When the spellcaster has access to spells that are directly and specifically useful in a way that is integral to the story, they use them.

If you just give the players the book and say, "Ahh, what the hell, pick 3 first level spells..." you are not going to have anywhere close to the same kind of cinematic satisfaction you will get from your spellcaster PC who took the trouble to learn Protection From Evil from that mouldy tome they discovered two sessions ago, and has it ready to go when the BBEG summons a demon in the final confrontation. He will probably even be happy to spend an action point to make his caster level check.

Tension, more tension, and magic judiciously applied at the dramatically appropriate moment... perfect.

Even the lowly Augury or Divination becomes something very cool if the player knows (metagame) that you'll have prepared some cryptic rhyming couplet, or specific "otherworldly creepy voice from beyond," to reward his use of such a utility spell.

Spells cast in combat are the least interesting, story-wise. They end up becoming the "utility" spells (cast whenever, without much thought), and the seemingly insignificant spells end up have great, satisfying meaning attached to them. Players (in my games) learn that they can waste their resources casting burning hands a few times, or they can be ready with a Knock spell or Resist Elements that saves the party and drives the story forward in a way that would not have been possible without their intervention.

I would encourage you to review your "style of play." (No offense intended, seriously.)

GM Spell selection-- the golden rule of low-magic gaming.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Would a L0 (Level 1/2 by this system) Close range spell (say ray of frost) be doable?

At the moment, yes.

Work in progress, remember-- it's why I posted it.

Part of the problem (if you have Elves, you can see) is that if you "build" most of the direct damage evocations, most of their cost is just wrapped up in increasing their level rather arbitrarily, just to increase the maximum damage cap suitable for "spells of that level."

At the moment, that means I've moved my focus to actually paying for that maximum damage cap, and then trying to figure out how to tuck other modifiers underneath.

I think I am going to have to move "increase base damage die" out from under the freebies, and figure out what to do with range, especially vis-a-vis Cones.

 

[BryonD]

At the moment, yes.

Work in progress, remember-- it's why I posted it.

Yeah, thats cool. I'm just commenting / questioning on what I see so far and that one piece was unclear.

I have elves, but not right in front of me. I'll go look at it later for a bit more context.

FWIW, I'm not claiming that a modular / skill based system must be able to replicate each and every spell from even just the core.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Preaching to the choir, neighbor.

Just to SEE I've run a few playtests with some different combinations and systems. I was just stating up front something that, as you just said, was an unconcious and relatively unspoken aspect of the GT system as it stands. It was, really, more a response to Rodrigo's "Honorable Mention" for spell lists.

I think spell lists are Numero Uno on the importance scale ... but it's a hard thing to put together to talk about. It's not just the flavor behind the crunch, because the spell list, or the magical abilities, dictate the kind of thing the players are going to DO with that hard-wrought crunch.

And, as I was pointing out, if you're going to give yourself an aneurism to cast Protection From Evil OR Magic Missile ... people choose Magic Missile. Maybe without thinking, but they do.

My favorite spell to give GT casters? Augury.
How many times have I seen people cast it (other than me) in D&D? Maybe twice.
How many times have I seen folks playing clerics fill up almost all of their 2nd level slots with Spiritual Weapon? ... yea.

What spells do I really love? d20 Call of Cthulhu. THOSE are some tastey spells. Augury ... but also Deflect Harm, Red Sign of Shudde'Mel ... stuff with horrible costs built in. Had a PC run around with Red Sign for months and never used it. Used it once, when things had become dire, and let up the chanting with one point of Strength left and the foemen at his feet.

Course then there was the giant spider beast to deal with.

Deflect Harm? Invincibility, for the cost of 2 Int damage per deflected hit. LOVE that spell compared to Mage Armor or Shield.

Just hard to build things like that into a skill-based system. I've been trying to find a way.

--fje

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Not a fan of lowering DCs. All my effects start at the base and go UP. I believe that a system with +/- effects is both more complex than I want it, and far easier to twink.

True. But giving the players a couple options to increase their chance of making the skill check at the expense of something bad isn't always a bad thing -- reduce the DC, add to the skill roll, same-same. The bonus for increasing the casting time in GT, for example, or making the skill check easier by forgoing burn resistance.