Casters Nerfed, Melee Ascendant (3.5)

[glass]

People are forgetting that these fatigue spells are going to hurt the spellcaster just as much. It would only take one of these, plus another strength reducer ('im almost certain there is a no save strength reducer somewhere out there) to kill a mage.

How is that?

glass.

 

[WizarDru]

These spells are as unbalanced as Miasma from Masters of the Wild. Why do I say this? Miasma is basically useless as a PC spell because the PCs will have dealt with the NPCs one way or another well before Miasma's effect really kicks in.

Miasma is the first spell I ever read when brought to me by a player where I actually said..."Oh, HELL No." It is an incredibly powerful spell for PCs, too. It is effectively a save-AND-die spell, not save-OR-die. Without magical aid, you WILL die from it in a matter of rounds. At 7th level, it will rack up to a DC 40 or so, assuming a 10 CON. Not really a good comparison. Just ask these folks here, for example.

Not to mention that these spells are weak for their level. Prayer which is a 3rd level cleric spells is basically the same as Waves of Fatigue except that it gives bonuses to allies as well as penalties to enemies. In nearly all circumstances it would be better to have Forcecage and/or Reverse Gravity than Waves of Exhaustion as the former allows no SR in addition to their other benefits.

Well, first off, prayer is a cleric spell. Second off, spells like prayer and recitation give named bonuses, so they're not exactly the same. If the character already has a luck bonus, it's not as powerful as it first sounded (and by 7th level, some of the group is likely to have same) due to stacking issues. Third, unlike prayer and Recitation, which are burst spell effects centered on the caster, these two spells are ranged at 30' and 60', meaning the caster can stay safely out of harm's way while casting them.

As for Forcecage...1500 gp per casting makes it more than a little unpopular, and it doesn't remove the problem, necessarily. It contains the foe, but they can still throw breath weapons and spells out of the cage (and probably missle weapons, as well). Enemy spellcasters might even cast it on themselves, as protection against your melee types. Reverse Gravity also suffers from being useless against certain creatures. Most groups at that level have flight capability sprinkled throughout the group, and fighting flying or levitating foes at the level is hardly uncommon. An effective spell, to be sure, but in the right situations.

Considering these spells offer no save, no resistance, can be cast at range, and require, at a minimum, either clerical intervention or 1 to 9 hours to counteract...I'd say they're about in line with their levels.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Well, first off, prayer is a cleric spell.

The title of this thread is spellcasters nerfed, not wizards nerfed. Prayer and Recitation make good comparisons since they do effectively the same same things.

Second off, spells like prayer and recitation give named bonuses, so they're not exactly the same. If the character already has a luck bonus, it's not as powerful as it first sounded (and by 7th level, some of the group is likely to have same) due to stacking issues.

If I recall 3.5 was supposed to be getting rid of unnamed bonuses. Now if was an enhancement, or natural armor, or deflection, or competance I might be more concearned but luck bonuses are few and far between (Unless you are a halfling). Sure, there might be a few times the stacking makes it less powerfull but I don't think it is a common occurance. The new spells also are named and won't stack with each other or themselves either or with natural fatigue or exhaustion.

Third, unlike prayer and Recitation, which are burst spell effects centered on the caster, these two spells are ranged at 30' and 60', meaning the caster can stay safely out of harm's way while casting them.

Prayer is a 30' burst while recitation is a 60' burst. The caster will be just as far away from the action with both. And with Prayer and Recitation they cover a full radius sphere, not just a cone.

As for Forcecage...1500 gp per casting makes it more than a little unpopular, and it doesn't remove the problem, necessarily. It contains the foe, but they can still throw breath weapons and spells out of the cage (and probably missle weapons, as well). Enemy spellcasters might even cast it on themselves, as protection against your melee types. Reverse Gravity also suffers from being useless against certain creatures. Most groups at that level have flight capability sprinkled throughout the group, and fighting flying or levitating foes at the level is hardly uncommon. An effective spell, to be sure, but in the right situations.

Considering these spells offer no save, no resistance, can be cast at range, and require, at a minimum, either clerical intervention or 1 to 9 hours to counteract...I'd say they're about in line with their levels.

Prayer and Recitation:
Save No (Same)
SR yes (So do the Wave spells actually)
Range 30' and 60' repectively (Same)
Counteracting: Prayer and Recitation: Dispell magic; Waves of X: Heal, Lesser restoration or Restoration. By the level the Wave spells are being cast any cleric should have at least Lesser Restoration scrolls for ability drains and Heal is a spell that even Nerfed will still be cast on the fighters at least once anyway in all likelyhood.

These spells seem out of line with thier cleric equivalents. Now if you think the cleric spells are too powerfull for thier level then all this nerfing is probably ok as well.