D&D 5E (2014) Casting with Shield - Bard Style

[Mistwell]

I say just ask your DM, and whatever he/she decides just go with it. If they want to hand waive it, that's fine too. Nothing will break either way.

 

[Prism]

We agree. Post 10, point 1. I call this lame verisimilitude: You wave your clarinet, as an arbitrary restriction, and playing it is irrelevant.

Nowhere does it describe how a character uses a focus to cast their spells. It doesn't say that a cleric most hold their holy symbol forth to banish a demon, it doesnt say that a wizard waves their wand to cast a fireball and it doesn't say a bard must play their instrument to cast a hypnotic pattern. As a DM you might enforce any of these things. As a player you might describe any of these things. Or you might simply ignore it and hold them in hand (no waving/hold forth/playing required). The focus rules are left entirely open for the group to play up as much as they want with no difference between the classes that I can see, except that valor bards are slightly more likely to use a shield than wizards and sorcerers, and that many instruments need two hands to play.

It seems pretty simple and realistic. If you want to play a two handed instrument don't wear a shield while doing it. I'm not sure what other ruling there could be. Maybe that's why they never changed anything during the play test since there doesn't seem to be another option that makes sense

 

[Herbalizer]

If you're a full-caster, and you have embraced your role as a full-caster, then why are you trying to pull off some wacky martial shenanigans? The Bard is a versatile class, but it can't be all things at all times.

The Valor Bard is a branch of the Bard class ..they made it that way, giving him access to medium armor, shield, 2 attacks ...It's there, they created it ..and the Valor Bard (with Shield and all) COULD cast any spells with M components at any time if he was using a component pouch instead ...Sure, you might prefer this method of casting spells in the middle of combat, but the fact remains that the concept of the class is that the character is a musician and it's kind of silly that rules prevent you from using your instruments to cast a spell but allows you to use a component pouch.

I don't see a problem. A wizard or sorcerer that uses a shield or carries two weapons is in the same boat.

No, because often the Wizards' or Sorcerers' spell focus will be the weapon (Orb embedded in a quarterstaff) ..hence, they don't have to "switch weapon" during a round to cast a spell with Material components.

Do you mean that its sloppy because a bard instrument requires two hands to play whereas an arcane focus only needs one hand?

That's one thing but not the only one ...If the rules state that a spell focus requires only 1 hand, and/but most musical instrument requires 2, they should have only allowed 1-handed spell focus ...and I hate the "logic" of waving a lure with one hand because "the rules never said the instrument should be played"..

If you wear a shield then don't play an instrument in combat.

why ? any other caster could use their spell focus, why not have the Bard "play" ?

Or use a horn. Or use a spell component pouch.

...and that's the other thing ...the main one in fact. The Bard (while wearing a shield) CAN cast all spells with Material components if he's not using a spell focus, but using a component pouch instead ...So basically, the rules makes the Bard (a musician) more effective if he doesn't play musical instruments and is played as a "wizard" instead ...

If they wanted to create a class that channels magic through musical instruments (which they obviously did), they should have facilitated this by making it possible for the Bard to cast spells the way it was designed to, which is playing an instrument, and not penalizing the character for doing so !

 

[Herbalizer]

I say just ask your DM, and whatever he/she decides just go with it. If they want to hand waive it, that's fine too. Nothing will break either way.

I ended up suggesting that instruments could be attached to myself (Lyre attached with a strap, flute or horn attached with rope around neck) which allows me to "drop" them for free while being able to draw a weapon in the same round and attack. However, if I start a round with my weapon in hand, I can't cast spells with M because I need to sheath, and therefore can't pick up an instrument in the same round (we don't like the idea of dropping a weapon on the ground to pick it up the next round ..it's silly) ..We'll try it that way ...if it becomes too annoying, I'll start gathering Materials, buy myself a pouch and stow away my instruments ..

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Sure, you might prefer this method of casting spells in the middle of combat, but the fact remains that the concept of the class is that the character is a musician and it's kind of silly that rules prevent you from using your instruments to cast a spell but allows you to use a component pouch.

Maybe you are mistaken on the concept? It's not like there's any magic inherent in the music or anything. Bards cast spells because they learn a little bit of everything, and magic is a thing that they can learn. They have a party trick that lets them cast spells while playing music, in case they don't want to reach for spell components in the middle of a song, because music is another completely separate aspect of their portfolio that they don't want to neglect.

There's no reason to expect that a Bard should be prancing across the battlefield with their lute out. Combat is the time to be serious. Play music later.

At least, that's how I see it. Maybe there's a huge call for magical musicians, and everyone else expects the Bard to be that. It's hard to say what other people may be thinking.

 

[Prism]

...and that's the other thing ...the main one in fact. The Bard (while wearing a shield) CAN cast all spells with Material components if he's not using a spell focus, but using a component pouch instead ...So basically, the rules makes the Bard (a musician) more effective if he doesn't play musical instruments and is played as a "wizard" instead ...

If they wanted to create a class that channels magic through musical instruments (which they obviously did), they should have facilitated this by making it possible for the Bard to cast spells the way it was designed to, which is playing an instrument, and not penalizing the character for doing so !

Well they kind of did. The core bard does not get proficiency with shields. The core bard including the lore bard subclass and possibly other future subclasses plays an instrument like a lyre in combat and on occasion draws a weapon to make an attack. It works just like you describe.

You are referring to the valor bard which specifically changes that behaviour to a weapon user rather than a lyre player (in combat at least). It does that by encouraging you to use a shield and weapon, but even that is entirely optional. This kind of bard is not designed to play music in battle - at least easily. I really cant see any way around that since as you say, a bard should play their instrument I believe rather than simply hold it. The only way it would work could be for the valor bard to have some quick draw kind of power letting them stow and swap easily. But why should the bard get that and no other character be able to do similar. Having said that, the rules don't say you cant just hold it. The rules support the style you want but you don't like it. I don't either. I also agree that I don't like dropping weapons, and instruments around you feet.

If you want your bard to use an instrument in combat why are you using a shield I have to ask. Many other classes can use shields but lots of characters don't actually do so. Its only an option. For your character I would drop the shield and you will be able to play in combat easily.

One more thing relating to the history of the class. In all the editions up to and including 3.5e the bard was designed to use spell components to cast spells and possibly singing as a verbal component. They did not cast using an instrument. They played music with an instrument. The old bard is very much like the valor bard I would say. In 4e they created the idea of using a focus and instrument to cast spells. That 4e version is very much like the lore bard of 5e. They then created another 4e bard which was not supposed to use an instrument but was weapon focused. That's the valor bard again. The history of the bard suggests that using an instrument in combat is not a typical thing to do. At least it is possible (just not easily with a shield)

 

[Herbalizer]

If you want your bard to use an instrument in combat why are you using a shield I have to ask. Many other classes can use shields but lots of characters don't actually do so. Its only an option. For your character I would drop the shield and you will be able to play in combat easily.

I obviously want the shield for the +2 AC because I am expected to be in the thick of things from time to time (we are only 3 in our current party), and I want to play an instrument because it improves the role play, the story, it personifies the character ... whether I'd cast a spell that requires a M using a component pouch or be allowed to switch weapon/instrument, the end result would be the same.

Ex 1 - According to rules:
Round 1: (Bard with shield) Sheath weapon, pick up component from pouch, cast spell (V,S,M)

Ex 2 - According to rules:
Round 1: (Bard with shield) Sheath weapon, ...cast spell (V,S only)
Round 2: (Bard with shield) Pick up lute, cast spell (V,S,M)

Ex 3 - What could be
Round 1: (Bard with shield) Sheath weapon, pick up lute, cast spell (V,S,M)

Hence, for example 1 and 3, the end result is the same, only the spoken words of the player changes :
Ex.1: "I sheath my sword, grab a handful of fine sand in my hand and throw it towards the enemies and put them to Sleep (V,S,M)
Ex.2: "I sheath my sword, grab my lute and start playing a relaxing melody to put them to Sleep (V,S,M)

Same end result, different interpretation ..some might like the former, some the later, but if you like the later, you can't do it because the rules make it that you'll have to wait for the next round to do that just as described in Ex.2

Anyway, this was a good discussion, and exactly what I was looking for! I wanted to know the consensus on the topic and I see that it's divided, that there is no clear preferred method and that basically it's up to each table to decide what they want to do with it ...Thanks everyone for contributing !

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

[MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION] I don't think bards have a "party trick" that "allows" then to use music to cast spells.

The jack of all trades schtick goes way back to Ad&d bards who HAD to multi class as Fighter, Thief and Druid - hence the theme.

However...

The PHB says
The bard is a master of song, speech, and the magic they contain. Bards say that the multiverse was spoken into existence, that the words of the gods have it shape, and the echoes of these primordial words of creation still resound throughout the cosmos. The music of bards is an attempt to snatch and harness these echoes, subtly woven into their spells and powers.
It then goes on to mention "the magic hidden in music".
It's not a party trick, it's their raison d'être.

 

[Herbalizer]

[MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION] I don't think bards have a "party trick" that "allows" then to use music to cast spells.

The jack of all trades schtick goes way back to Ad&d bards who HAD to multi class as Fighter, Thief and Druid - hence the theme.

However...

The PHB says
The bard is a master of song, speech, and the magic they contain. Bards say that the multiverse was spoken into existence, that the words of the gods have it shape, and the echoes of these primordial words of creation still resound throughout the cosmos. The music of bards is an attempt to snatch and harness these echoes, subtly woven into their spells and powers.
It then goes on to mention "the magic hidden in music".
It's not a party trick, it's their raison d'être.

Beautiful !!

 

[TwoSix]

It's not like there's any magic inherent in the music or anything.
...
At least, that's how I see it. Maybe there's a huge call for magical musicians, and everyone else expects the Bard to be that. It's hard to say what other people may be thinking.

I think this is the sticky wicket of the discussion.