[Castles and Crusades] The Encumbrance System has to Go.

[VorpalBunny]

I just finished running my guys through our first game of C&C - everyone LOVED it, with the exception of the encumbrance system. Under the current system, it seems that no matter how strong you are if you wear medium to heavy armor, carry a weapon and other *minimal* adventuring gear, you're encumbered.

Case #1:

Martis, human Fighter. STR 18. He's carrying:

A chain shirt (ENC 2w)
A large steel shield (ENC 3w)
A shortbow (ENC 2w)
A quiver of 20 arrows (ENC 1w)
Backpack (capacity 8 ENC) (ENC 3w)
Bandages (2 wounds) (in Backpack)
Rations, 1 day (in Backpack)
Hooded lantern (in backpack)
Flasks of oil (3) (in backpack)

His STR gives him an ENC rating of 11. If he shoulders the shield and bow and transfers the lantern from the backpack to his hand, or if he decides to *wear* a dagger on his hip he becomes lightly encumbered.

????

Case #2:

Jorin, human Ranger. STR 17. He's carrying:

Leather Armor
Long Sword
Short Sword
Dagger
Longbow
Quiver with 1 score arrows
Cloak
Soft High Boots
Backpack

He has an ENC rating of 10. If you add up the ENC of his gear, he's Lightly encumbered. With a 17 STR?

I'm seriously considering scrapping the C&C encumbrance system and using the 3.x or 2nd edition rules. Anyone have any good houserules, errata or alternate systems they're using? I love C&C, but the encumbrance rules are definitely a little screwy IMO.

 

[rogueattorney]

...and consider that being encumbered not only slows you down, but also penalizes your AC and all rolls related to physical abilities, including attack and damage rolls. Characters will sometimes actually have a better AC if they aren't using a shield.

It's a pretty ridiculous system. Added to the fact that carrying capacity of containers isn't included in the book, and addeed to the fact that the "w's" denoting whether an item is wearable isn't included in the book, the whole equipment section is pretty well a disaster. The Trolls have promised an errata to clear things up, but nearly three months after the release of the book, it hasn't been forthcoming.

That, plus the missing spells (Alter Self, Daze, and at least one other) which haven't been addressed in the errata makes me pretty dissapointed with the product support so far. I'm not going to buy another one of their products until they at least give me the information I need to use the one I've already bought.

R.A.

 

[rogueattorney]

Here's an expanded errata from one of the posters on Troll's site:
http://goreanmale.homestead.com/files/errata.pdf

It addresses some of my issues, like the spells and equipment capacity.

R.A.

 

[Akrasia]

I agree that this is a weak rule -- probably the weakest in C&C.

So far I have not really been using it. But I am probably going to introduce the following house rule system:

Carrying capacity: characters can carry their strength score in ENC without penalty (e.g. a PC with 13 STR can carry 13 ENC with no penalty).

Backpacks and other containers don't add to your total encumberance, they actually make things easier to carry. The actual ENC of a container = 1/2 its capacity (or ENC of current contents, if less than capacity). You only suffer the ENC of the container (but no discount for wearing it), not the stuff inside it. So a backpack with ENC 4 can hold 8 ENC worth of stuff, basically giving the character an extra 4 ENC to hold onto stuff.

 

[VorpalBunny]

Carrying capacity: characters can carry their strength score in ENC without penalty (e.g. a PC with 13 STR can carry 13 ENC with no penalty).

Backpacks and other containers don't add to your total encumberance, they actually make things easier to carry. The actual ENC of a container = 1/2 its capacity (or ENC of current contents, if less than capacity). You only suffer the ENC of the container (but no discount for wearing it), not the stuff inside it. So a backpack with ENC 4 can hold 8 ENC worth of stuff, basically giving the character an extra 4 ENC to hold onto stuff.

I like it. STR = ENC makes MUCH more sense, IMO.

<yoink!>

 

[Dragonhelm]

Personally, I've never been one to be big on encumbrance rules. To me, using a little common sense is all you need.

If you only have a sword and a wineskin, you won't be slowed down too much. Full armor? You're going to go a bit slower. Carrying 5 swords, a warhammer, 3 chickens, a staff, two maces, 12 barrels, and a dragonlance is obviously a bit much.

Granted, I've been lucky to have players who don't take advantage of things.

 

[Turanil]

<...> and a dragonlance is obviously a bit much.

Dragonhelm, do you have houserules for your C&C / Dragonlance campaign? I mean, what do you do for Knights of Solamnia (beyond using the Knight class), and especially, what do you do for Wizards of High Sorcery who passed the test, for the three orders of magic? (assuming you do something of course).

 

[Dragonhelm]

Dragonhelm, do you have houserules for your C&C / Dragonlance campaign? I mean, what do you do for Knights of Solamnia (beyond using the Knight class), and especially, what do you do for Wizards of High Sorcery who passed the test, for the three orders of magic? (assuming you do something of course).

To be honest, I'm using the d20 rules for my Dragonlance game. The C&C PHB wasn't out when I began, and I'm running Key of Destiny, which uses the d20 rules.

However, I can tell you that Jackal from the Troll Lord Games boards is working on a conversion document. When that's done, I'll post it on the Dragonlance Nexus.

Some thoughts for now...

I think multiclassing is essential where the knighthood is concerned. TLG doesn't have official multiclassing rules yet, but there are a number of fan variants out there.

I'll tackle both the Knights of Solamnia and the Knights of Takhisis/Neraka here. Crown and Lily Knights are all your basic knight class, so you can use that. Sword Knights could use the paladin class, or a multiclassed knight/paladin. Rose would probably be the same. Thorn Knights would probably be a multiclass knight/wizard or fighter/wizard. Skull Knights would be a multiclass knight/cleric or fighter/cleric.

As for the Wizards of High Sorcery, the base wizard class would suffice. The key would be to figure out how the moons work in C&C. I'm not sure if C&C has mechanics such as the +1 caster level or not, but I'd say to have a +1 caster level when your moon is in high sanction, a -1 caster level when in low sanction, a +2 caster level if two moons are aligned in high sanction, and a +3 caster level on the Night of the Eye. Or something like that. Maybe one of the C&C gurus could give some advice on this.

To be honest, I think C&C would be an excellent system for Dragonlance. You don't have any problems with spellcasting rangers or bards, and having that knight base class is a big help. You'd need to work with the races some, maybe do a few new classes (i.e. sorcerer and mystic for the 5th age), and you're good to go.

Hope that helps.

 

[driver8]

I find the ENC rather funny as well. Just like older versions of DND, we have a rules light system but a rather detailed logistical system when it comes to carrying stuff.

That said I dont really have a problem with the system, just with the way it was implemented . The equipment section is confusing and full of errors ( quivers for arrows but not bolts?). And some values seem odd. I also disagree with the role of containers, and Ive houseruled that backpacks are and ENC of 0 when worn empty.

What I do like is the fact that PCs cant be pack mules. D20 struck me as a bit "unrealistic" since you can carry tons of stuff. C&C presents ENC as static (8 plus str bonus) which I think is right considering theres just so many places you can stow stuff on the body. As in real life PCs will probably depend on horses, pack animals and dumping equipment when going into battle.

Though the penalty to AC seems a bit harsh, it seems analogous to max dex and armor check penalties in d20. To me encumberence isnt just about the load you carry but how it effects agility and mobility, not just speed. Its just not all about weight.

In the end and depending on the "official" erratta that comes down, I may not change too much.

 

[Mythmere1]

I like the ENC system, I just don't like the numbers that are plugged into that system. I'm going to think about the idea of using str as the base number instead of 8+modifier. Most of the enc numbers seem too high to me, so just upping the base number might fix it pretty well.