Castles are worthless against armies with mages?

[Jack Simth]

I was actually replying to myself, where I had suggested wizards casting both see invisibility and permanancy on several of the watch so that a city could have someone watching both the sky and city for invisible intruders. Range personal means that the wizard can't cast it on a member of the watch he must cast it on himself and function as the watch himself. Level 10 is required for permanancy, If you wanted a watch with permanant see invisibility like I had suggested earlier they would have to be 10th level wizards.

There is actually a Core way around that - it's just really annoying. Here's how it goes:

1) Get two rings of Spell Storing (each needs to be able to hold 6th level spells, at a minimum - they're reusable, though)
2) Load one up with a casting of See Invisibility, metamagic'd up so it requires at least a 6th level spell slot (and thus, caster level 11). What metamagic doesn't really matter. Quicken will do.
3) Load the other up with a casting of Permanency (1,000 xp), also metamagic'd up so it requires at least a 6th level spell slot (and thus, caster level 11). What metamagic doesn't really matter. Still Spell, Heighten Spell, or Silent Spell will do just fine.
4) Put both rings on the watchman in question.
5) Have the watchman activate the See Invisibility.
6) Have the watchman activate the Permanency, targeting the See Invisibility.
7) Remove both rings from the watchman.

This does not require the watchman have any particular build. Just that the sponser hiring and equipping him have access to a Wizard-11 (or better) who knows Permanency, See Invisibility, and a few meta-magic feats. The only reason for the metamagic feats being the caster level reduction inherent in a Ring of Spell Storing.

 

[Ranger19k]

Isn't the United Stated Bullion Depository operated by the Treasury Department? Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that the Bullion Depository was constructed from the beginning as a vault for valuable materials and never as a military installation.

The Gold Depository is on a sectioned off portion of the Fort Knox Military Installation. Local security and management IS indeed run by the treasury, but they have the added benefit of having the security of a military base surrounding it, with such security luminaries as Basic Training, Armor school cadre, recruiting command, and now the very prestigious human resources command all pitching in for area security.

Based off of what I've seen from the black SWAT treasury department quick reaction force, I think that they'd do just as well on their own....

 

[Dandu]

Right. I'm just trying to confirm that the vault is not, nor ever has been, a military installation.

 

[Ranger19k]

According to "Goldfinger" - yes. As far as I know in real life - no.

 

[Ranger19k]

I flipped through the stronghold builders guide to see if it did mention any possibility of creating horizontal walls of force. In a world with beaucoup flying menaces (from rampaging dragons to flying wizards dropping shrunken mountain tops and everything in between), it seems to me that something like a "Space Balls" style Air-Shield would seem pretty appealing.

Anyway, the stronghold builders guide does talk about using Walls of Force horizontally in two places: protected domed observatories (so a domed roof), and referencing the cube of force magic item from the DMG. The fact that it references a couple instances, leads one to believe that it should be possible, but in true publishing brilliance, they fail to mention any rules-based mechanism for completing this task. So I guess it's up to house ruling responsibility (or wishes, or researched spells, or what-have-you).

As mentioned above though, I guess it would be quite expensive to put a permanent wall of force dome over a castle, even if you could figure out how to do it. The book throws out 13,150 gp for a permanent Wall of Force by a 13th level caster, so that's 13 10' squares. So if you flung up 10 of them, covering 130 10foot squares, that would run you 131,500 gp. While not enough to cover the whole castle, I guess you could cover some of the more valuable parts with a force-shield - inner keep, gate, key wall positions, ect.

For a high level character settling down? Maybe. Probably not. But someone ought to do it.

 

[Jack Simth]

I flipped through the stronghold builders guide to see if it did mention any possibility of creating horizontal walls of force. In a world with beaucoup flying menaces (from rampaging dragons to flying wizards dropping shrunken mountain tops and everything in between), it seems to me that something like a "Space Balls" style Air-Shield would seem pretty appealing.

Anyway, the stronghold builders guide does talk about using Walls of Force horizontally in two places: protected domed observatories (so a domed roof), and referencing the cube of force magic item from the DMG. The fact that it references a couple instances, leads one to believe that it should be possible, but in true publishing brilliance, they fail to mention any rules-based mechanism for completing this task. So I guess it's up to house ruling responsibility (or wishes, or researched spells, or what-have-you).

Actually "Force" is on the unit construction table, at 40,000 gp/unit (per space) - page 35. There's a different entry in freestanding walls at 4,000 gp/unit (page 37). Page 34 lets you know what percentage of the walls are interior, and what percentage are exterior (in general, at least...).

 

[Ranger19k]

I gotcha. The mechanic they lay out is Craft Wondrous Item with the spell Wall of Force and that allows you to craft wondrous force architecture - vertical, horizontal, whatever. So you're right, that would be the mechanism for building an overarching "force dome" over the castle. Guess you'd just have to leave a gap for entry/exit since you still can't work in windows and doors. Well, there's my "Space Balls" airlock, roughly at least. Not cheap though....

Thanks Jack.

 

[Jack Simth]

I gotcha. The mechanic they lay out is Craft Wondrous Item with the spell Wall of Force and that allows you to craft wondrous force architecture - vertical, horizontal, whatever. So you're right, that would be the mechanism for building an overarching "force dome" over the castle. Guess you'd just have to leave a gap for entry/exit since you still can't work in windows and doors. Well, there's my "Space Balls" airlock, roughly at least. Not cheap though....

No, no it's not. But it does force your opponent to have certain minimum resources to be able to take your fortress through the walls. And the primary point of fortifications is that you can build them up very slowly over time, while the person trying to take them down has to do so pretty much all at once.

And you *can* do doors, sort of. You make a periodic Wall of Force trap (or Summon Monster and Resilient Sphere, if you want to do it on the cheap), and inside, you put a triggered Disintegrate trap, targeting the Wall of Force. To open the door, you hit the trigger on the Disintegrate trap, which gets rid of the Wall of Force. However many rounds later, the periodic Wall of Force trap replaces that wall.

And, of course, if you do flying architecture, you can make this wall of force all-encompasing. Then fill the area with Forbiddance. And put Obdurium just behind the Walls of Force for good measure....

Thanks Jack.

You're welcome.

 

[aboyd]

I just want to say that this thread is awesome. I have been fascinated by the discussion, and I've bookmarked it. Should I ever wish to write my own modules, you can bet that the keeps & castles I build will incorporate at least some of these concepts. Thanks all. Carry on.

 

[Pergentile]

You know, aerial mobility does seem like an efficient use of magical resources. In current day, weapons that travel great distances at great altitudes trump pretty much anything. After that comes jets etc.

Realistically if one were to besiege a City-state, and one had access to even a single fifth level wizard, any aerial tactics one could devise would probably be done with impunity. One would be dropping boulders completely unchecked due to the fact of it not realistically happening very often.

This would mean that any party with a Wizard, or a larger party with two such Wizards, would, just by virtue of being a party of PC's, have a great advantage in that any strategies that they thought of would probably have no precedence or counter.

Which means that any strange or unrealistic strategies would most likely be a more efficient use of magical resources then anything with precedent. I am sure its realistic that spell-casters in the past would have thought of something like such, but to actually do it, or spread the idea around? Even if such had been done, would it be given credence if it was never seen?

A group of PC's against an exact mirror of PC's are likely to win, because of an ability to think with a broader scope. This is technically meta-gaming, but the kind that is not bad, and cannot be stopped.

Ah, my post is completely off the current track of the conversation, but whatevs.

Edit: PC's would want to besiege a City-state just for the FUN OF IT. So no, castles are not worthless against magic, since said magic will almost never be brought to bear against said castle... except where PC's are concerned!