Cation, Information, Paranoia and Preparation(Forked Thread:)
- Thread starter Reynard
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Hussar
Legend
I did a thread a while ago, Factors that Affect CR/EL that, IMO, covered a lot of the stuff that makes EL wonky. If you can factor those elements, CR does work. Most of the time.
Reynard - I can see this is also a very strong playstyle issue as well. I don't do sandbox games like that. My games, whether as a player or a DM, almost always feature fairly strong plots, meaning that randomly wandering over to places on the map just doesn't happen in the games I play.
Reynard - I can see this is also a very strong playstyle issue as well. I don't do sandbox games like that. My games, whether as a player or a DM, almost always feature fairly strong plots, meaning that randomly wandering over to places on the map just doesn't happen in the games I play.
Out of curiosity, is this a preference for plots/storylines, or a preference against sandbox style games?
Hussar
Legend
I'd have to say preference for mostly. I don't honestly have that much experience with sandbox games. Even way back in 1e and B/E D&D, we ran a lot of modules. The idea that you just plop the party in the middle of somewhere with nothing really going on and no particularly reason for them to be there and not somewhere else isn't a way I've ever really played.
There was always some reason for what we were doing. It might be thin, hackneyed, cliche and 99% crap, but there was a reason.
There was always some reason for what we were doing. It might be thin, hackneyed, cliche and 99% crap, but there was a reason.
Remathilis
Legend
More to the point, I try to do the following...
I never put a Maguffin in a place where monsters of higher power reside. If the group learns they need to recover the Ancient Spear of Malamorte, its going to be a place of CR-suited monsters. 
They have a fair warning as to general monsters in the area: northern mountains have giants, the underdark has mind flayers and drow, and everyone has heard the rumors of the undead inhabiting the gloomfen swamp. 
No "gotcha" monsters. This is what I meant by "surprisingly high CR monster among a bunch of low-level foes" that Older D&D modules loved to occasionally do. 
Zoning Rules. Here is where things get a little meta-gamey. Most of your common, low-land areas have minor nuisance foes (goblins, orcs, etc) that are challenges early, but not later on. Similarly, local crypts rarely hold undead more powerful than ghouls or shadows, etc. You have to go to remote areas for powerful monsters to appear (hill giants don't live near hamlets, elder dragons don't build dens near inhabited city-states, and liches want more privacy than the local cemetery). When higher-level adventures happen, its because the adventurers went to the remote locales where they live or the monsters came down to visit the civilized lands (such as a githyanki incursion). 
Try to pace rumors and adventure hooks to match the appropriate level. No Rings of Ultimate Power at level one quests. 
When all else fails, give the PCs a bit of meta-info. It never hurts to occasionally explain that Hill Giants are CR X, or that The Lich Arthgard is known to have cast 8th level magic.
I'd have to say preference for mostly. I don't honestly have that much experience with sandbox games. Even way back in 1e and B/E D&D, we ran a lot of modules. The idea that you just plop the party in the middle of somewhere with nothing really going on and no particularly reason for them to be there and not somewhere else isn't a way I've ever really played.
There was always some reason for what we were doing. It might be thin, hackneyed, cliche and 99% crap, but there was a reason.
I have a deep, unabiding hatrred for both running and playing in "plotted" adventures/campaigns. As much as I like the style and tone of Paizo's adventures, I could never run an adventure path. The idea that characters would stay on track for one adventure -- let alone 20 levels' worth -- just boggles me. Players should make their own adventures.
Not that I don't understand why people don't want it that way. i've been in that situation where the players are just sitting, staring at you, waiting to be told what to do. usually, that's when the ninjas burst in through the windows. invitably, they will track them back to their hideout and kill the Big Ninja. It ain't much, but at least they had fun.
Hussar
Legend
While I'm about to embark on the Savage Tide AP, I think the best campaign would combine both sandbox and themed. An adventure matrix I believe it's called where you have four or five fairly distinct adventures ready to go at any given time/level. The players choose which ones they want to do, and can move from one to another and then back again as they want and is reasonable to do.
I have done sandbox adventures - like the original Isle of Dread - lots of times. But, I've never done an entire campaign that way.
I have done sandbox adventures - like the original Isle of Dread - lots of times. But, I've never done an entire campaign that way.
My current 3e campaign is based on the old BECM D&D modules, and the gotcha monsters crop up - had my first PC death in the third session last time from one, a bone golem. I have to say I prefer the old module's generally low threat level combined with occasional scary gotchas to having every fight be a major, resource-depleting challenge. And of course the 3e DMG does recommend that ca 5% of encounters be EL 5+ over party level and the PCs should run away! I think this works well, though it's nice to have some redshirt NPCs along with the PCs who can, where plausible, get in the way of the gotcha-monster until the PCs have time to flee.
I always do this - it's the only way to run a plausible campaign world IMO. High power threats must be rare and distant if common humanity is to survive, never mind low level heroes. The high level stuff lurks in the far mountains, the deep dungeons, the icy northern wastes etc. As the campaign progresses, either the PCs have to seek it out, or there is an incursion.
I think if the GM says "You can do adventure X, Y or Z" the campaign will lack any sense of urgency. The original Matrix idea per 1e DSG is that whichever way the PCs travel, they encounter a different adventure, but it all ties in together to the overall theme and leads to the same/similar climax.
My current campaign is likely to just be linear with one adventure after another from level 1-9, chosen by me the GM, since I'm running it at a public club and the players change frequently. However exactly which adventure I run will be determined by the outcome of previous adventures; eg if many PCs die party level will be lower and I'll run lower level stuff. If they're very successful they'll be higher level, I'll leave out some filler adventures and get to the campaign climax sooner.
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