Cause Fear vs. Scare (featuring the Sage's answer)

[Aaron2]

I can see where you're coming from, but I don't agree.

What is the reason for Scare to say "creatures of less than 6 HD [to] become frightened" since creatures with less than 6 HD already become frightened by Cause Fear? Is this errata where Scare is meant to refer to creatures of 6+ HD?

Also, in Scare why refer to "targeted creatures" instead of "affected creatures" as in Cause Fear?


Aaron

 

[Alchemist]

What is the reason for Scare to say "creatures of less than 6 HD [to] become frightened" since creatures with less than 6 HD already become frightened by Cause Fear? Is this errata where Scare is meant to refer to creatures of 6+ HD?

Also, in Scare why refer to "targeted creatures" instead of "affected creatures" as in Cause Fear?


Aaron

I still think the blurb on 193 is the spirit of the spell despite the, ah, "flexible" wording in the body. Nobody above 5HD affected. If we disregard that text (I'm not sure why we would, but okay) then it is debatable, IMHO.

If *I* were writing a spell to automatically affect creatures of 5HD or less and give a save to creatures of 6+HD, I would take my cues from Cloudkill, a classic spell with various effects for different HD. Note the "Saving Throw: Fort partial: see text" and the clear description in the text as to what happens to whom. As far as I can tell, the spirit of the spell is that it only works on relative weaklings (5HD or less), and so there is no need to say anything about other targets. I admit, they could have worded it better.

As for targeted vs affected, that would seem to me to be a semantic difference. Targeted sounds better than affected for multiple targets that you have targeted.

I have to wonder if the interpretation you're putting forward is in line (power-wise) with a typical 2nd level spell. A 3rd level caster being able to automatically put the fear into 5HD opponents seems wonky to me. Consider Daze Monster; One creature of 6HD or less loses next action on a Will negates save. Automatically having a 5HD opponent (or more than one!) run away for 3 rounds seems substantially better. Heck, doing it to a 20HD beastie of your choice gets you a shaken result in any case, and if you're super lucky, he'll bolt. That seems a bit much to me for a 2nd level spell. YMMV, of course.

 

[Davelozzi]

I asked Skip Wiliams to clarify, and this is what he had to say...

I'm confused about the difference between the spells Cause Fear and Scare in
D&D 3.5. I've brought the question up on EN World but the various posters
there disagree.

Some folks seem to think that both spells only work on creatures of 6 HD or
less and that the two spells just phrase that fact differently ("Creatures
with 6 or more Hit Dice are immune" vs. "causes all targeted creatures of
less than 6 HD to become frightened"), and that both spells cause
character(s) who fail their saves to be frightened for the duration and
those that pass to be shaken for 1 round. So the main difference is just
in the number of targets affected (with minor differences in duration,
range, and the fact that Scare has a material component).

Others interpret "causes all targeted creatures of less than 6 HD to become
frightened" in the description of Scare to mean that all creatures of less
than 6 HD get no save and are automatically frightened, while those of 6 HD
or more must save or be frightened (or if they make their save they're still
shaken for 1 round).

The biggest difference between the two spells (other than the spell level) is the number of creatures affected. Cause fear works on only once creature, scare works on multiple creatures.

Both spells have save entries of Will (partial), and both spells leave their subjects shaken on successful saves. Yes, the scare text seems to imply otherwise, but the folks who wrote the text assumed you'd pay attention to the save entry immediately above. If targeted creatures of less than 6 hit doce were automatically frightened, the save entry would read "none."

Neither spell works against creatures with 6 or more hit dice (or if you're a glass half full sort of person, both spells only work on creatres with 5 hit dice ot less).

Could you clarify? Also, would you mind if I post your reply in that thread?

No, but you can clip it and post it there if you like. Please ask anyone with a comment to copy me at this address.

That address is TSRsage@aol.com.

 

[UltimaGabe]

I read the "all targeted creatures" to mean they don't get a save. They shouldn't have said "as cause fear" since the referenced part in only one line long. I see it as <6 HD - no save, auto frightened; >=6 HD save or frightened.

Then the spell would be far too powerful. It's only a 2nd-level spell- and you can get it at 3rd level. If that were the case, any 3rd-level Wizard could cast this on a monster with twice as many hit dice and automatically cause them to flee. No attack roll, no save, no nothing. That, in my opinion, is far too powerful for a 2nd level spell.

 

[Joshua Randall]

Now that we have things like Invisibility -> Greater Invisibility; Lesser Confusion -> Confusion; and so forth, they really ought to clean up the "make you scared" spells. Right now we have:

Cause Fear (Sor/Wiz 1) -> Scare (Sor/Wiz 2) -> Fear (Sor/Wiz 4)

This should be:

Fear, Lesser -> Fear -> Fear, Greater

I would also like to see these progressions fixed:

Fly -> Fly, Greater (instead of Overland Flight)
Sleep -> Sleep, Greater (instead of Deep Slumber)

It would also be nice to clear up the whole Charm Person / Hypnotism / Hypnotic Pattern / Rainbow Pattern mess. But I digress....

 

[Ferret]

Just to sat my part I prefer some of the new names. Rather then just grwater this or lesser that. It's boring.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I'll take a middle-of-the-road position on this one -- while I'd like to see fear come in greater/lesser/normal versions, I like fly and sleep as they are. Deep slumber is obviously better than sleep; ditto for overland flight and fly. With names like scare, fear, and cause fear there's confusion...