Cavalier's code of conduct from Unearthed Arcana

[ForceUser]

I totally agree that the code as written in UA makes more sense for real-world, historical knights. But I'm modifying it for use by fantasy paladins who are more aligned with modern day sensibilities of justice and respect for the inherent worth and dignity of all people. I'm basically going to fuse this list of virtues and this code with what's expected from exalted characters, as outlined in the Book of Exalted Deeds. I just needed a baseline from which to deviate.

 

[Hjorimir]

I think Humility is a great paladin virtue. Without Humility a paladin can quickly become a monster touting that god is on his side (when really it is more about beong on God's side). I'd also consider replacing personal glory with the god's glory.

 

[William Ronald]

I think Humility is a great paladin virtue. Without Humility a paladin can quickly become a monster touting that god is on his side (when really it is more about beong on God's side). I'd also consider replacing personal glory with the god's glory.

I think these are great ideas. A person can end up confusing his opinions with that of his god -- which can lead to all sorts of problems. Also, a paladin is a warrior for a cause. So, a paladin should care more about the glory of his god than his own. So, perhaps a paladin would chose to see his name brought low before the name of his god.

 

[tonym]

So a paladin should be obliged to act humble? Let me get this straight...

If a farmer said to a paladin, "You did a great job rescueing my daughter! You killed three trolls! You are the best warrior ever!"...

You would oblige the paladin to respond with something like, "No, my skills are only mediocre, at best. All the glory goes to my god. I am but a tool in his hand."

That's how you want your players to roleplay a paladin? Something humble like that?

And you would would find fault with a player who had his paladin reply, "Thank you, sir. Three weeks in the Banewarrens have given me much skill in fighting evil." Because that shows pride, and pride is bad, according your campaign?

Tony M

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Of course humility will sound lame if you purposefully make a lame caricature of it. (Though, that said, "All the glory goes to my god; it is he who empowered me to enact your deliverance" wouldn't be a bad answer).

When people discuss humility as a virtue, they aren't referring to a dishonestly low assessment of their own abilities (pretty women calling themselves ugly or smart men telling everyone how dumb they are) just as, when people talk about pride as a vice, they're not talking about accepting awards or compliments or believing that you can succeed at ordinary tasks (though believing you can succeed where you actually can't often IS pride). Exactly what people do mean is a bit hard to express concisely, but it has several main ingredients: 1. A willingness to endure humiliation and to give up glory when needed (when needed is the important part). In the knightly context, Sir Gareth (the kitchen knight) is an example of this where he puts up with the whiny, snobby maiden he is tasked with escorting. To use an example from OotS, a humble paladin does not need to sleep in a muddy ditch every night, but neither is the paladin too good to sleep in a muddy ditch if the situation requires it.
2. A willingness to forgo the honor and accolades due to one's station. (In this sense, as in the previous sense, the humility required of a paladin directly conflicts with the pride required of a UA cavalier: the cavalier would not be humiliated by wearing the armor of a thief--even to infiltrate a thieve's guild; a paladin who valued humility, on the other hand, would be willing to do so).
3. A willingness to obey and an ability to take commands. A humble person is not above taking orders from someone with the authority to give them. This is one of the most important aspects of humility in the human relationship with the divine. A humble character does not think he knows better than his god.
4. Acknowledging one's place and giving others the accolades and praise that they deserve. A humble knight will kneel before the king. (Though he may refuse to kowtow to an emperor if he believes that absolute submission is only appropriate to God). A humble knight will congratulate a rival on his victory and will compliment skill without worrying that he is calling attention to his own weaknesses.

So a paladin should be obliged to act humble? Let me get this straight...

If a farmer said to a paladin, "You did a great job rescueing my daughter! You killed three trolls! You are the best warrior ever!"...

You would oblige the paladin to respond with something like, "No, my skills are only mediocre, at best. All the glory goes to my god. I am but a tool in his hand."

That's how you want your players to roleplay a paladin? Something humble like that?

And you would would find fault with a player who had his paladin reply, "Thank you, sir. Three weeks in the Banewarrens have given me much skill in fighting evil." Because that shows pride, and pride is bad, according your campaign?

Tony M

 

[ForceUser]

So a paladin should be obliged to act humble? Let me get this straight...

If a farmer said to a paladin, "You did a great job rescueing my daughter! You killed three trolls! You are the best warrior ever!"...

You would oblige the paladin to respond with something like, "No, my skills are only mediocre, at best. All the glory goes to my god. I am but a tool in his hand."

That's how you want your players to roleplay a paladin? Something humble like that?

And you would would find fault with a player who had his paladin reply, "Thank you, sir. Three weeks in the Banewarrens have given me much skill in fighting evil." Because that shows pride, and pride is bad, according your campaign?

Tony M

I would argue that your example is not of humility, but false humility. The paladin knows that his skills are not mediocre. Also, I don't see why the two examples need be either/or, assuming that the first example is genuine.

 

[ForceUser]

Wow, Elder-Basilisk expressed it perfectly. Well done, sir.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hey, if we're talking 1E Cavaliers, you can't leave out the Order-of-Charging-Stuff!

How else do I know if I'm supposed to charge the evil ogre or the evil cavalier first?

-Hyp.

 

[Wolv0rine]

This is one problem I see in almost all discussions of Paladins. The problem here is that when thinking of Diety/worshipper relations, everyone wants to treat it like christianty. King Arthur's knights had a very mideval christian code, but that doesn't mean that every paladin must or even should have a similar code.

Just to pull the easiest example; Thor would not want a humble paladin. Humility isn't really a big virtue in that sort of pantheon. You don't go down on bended knee and pray like some sort of Gorean slave to Thor, that's no way to get into Valhalla. You prove your worth by deed and mutter a prayer when you think it'd be a good idea.

That's just the easiest example to use, though. I'm not saying any of the paladin code arguements are wrong, I'm just (again) pointing out that no one paladin code is good for every paladin, and that there is no Unified Paladin Code or Ideal that can be applied to every paladin, because the outlooks and ideals desired by different gods are pretty different.

It's like the arguement that a world-weary, hard-drinking paladin who's on a first-name basis with the local Madam and greeted by name by her girls when he invariably walks in must be stripped of his paladinhood. The arguement, when applied with a broad, all-encompassing brush, is garbage. If the paladin is the servant of his god(s), then his code is also dependant on his god(s). And if the paladin is simply the servant of the ideal of Lawful-Good, then I'd personally rather see a paladin code that focuses on Lawful Good instead of some kind of chaste flawless paragon of all victorian virtues figure.

But, that's just me.

 

[Gentlegamer]

So a paladin should be obliged to act humble? Let me get this straight...

If a farmer said to a paladin, "You did a great job rescueing my daughter! You killed three trolls! You are the best warrior ever!"...

You would oblige the paladin to respond with something like, "No, my skills are only mediocre, at best. All the glory goes to my god. I am but a tool in his hand."

That's how you want your players to roleplay a paladin? Something humble like that?

And you would would find fault with a player who had his paladin reply, "Thank you, sir. Three weeks in the Banewarrens have given me much skill in fighting evil." Because that shows pride, and pride is bad, according your campaign?

Tony M

Humility is not putting yourself down. Your second example is nearer the mark. The humble man fairly assesses himself, and accepts legitimate praise graciously.