Celestial vermin - Int 3 or not?

[Flyspeck23]

When adding the celestial template to a vermin (say, a celestial giant fire beetle - see summoning monster), does that creature gain Int 3, or does it remain mindless (the vermin trait)?

I'd say it stays mindless, or the creature would actually be weaker in one aspect for becoming celestial.

But I'm looking for rules on this. Is there any official source for this?
The only rule I've found is: "A template may add or remove special qualities." (MM 3.5, p.292). But the template doesn't explicitly say that it removes the mindless trait, merely that the creature has at least Int 3...

 

[CRGreathouse]

I'm pretty sure it gets Int 3.

 

[hong]

I would say it has Int 3, and it's _still_ immune to mind-affecting stuff. Vermin brains are just funky.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I have a hard time imagining Celestial vermin, anyway.

It would seem that the Upper Planes are mainly vermin-free, except the ones that directly border Limbo, perhaps. (Or Mechanus, if you consider Formians to be vermin.)

 

[Wippit Guud]

It gets realy crazy if a Vermin Lord casts Awaken vermin.

 

[hong]

I have a hard time imagining Celestial vermin, anyway.

It would seem that the Upper Planes are mainly vermin-free, except the ones that directly border Limbo, perhaps. (Or Mechanus, if you consider Formians to be vermin.)

Well, the same issue would arise with fiendish vermin.

 

[Flyspeck23]

Some more thoughts:
- If Int 3 removes the mindless trait, the creature suddenly gains another weakness, and that shouldn't be part of the celestial (or fiendish, for that matter) template, as celestial creatures are supposed to be "better" than their non-celestial counterparts (yes, I know, that's very combat-centered, but hey, we're talking 'bout D&D here ). The creature isn't a vermin anymore - it's a magical beast - augmented vermin. Therefore it should have the traits of both creature types, thus retaining it's mindless trait.
- If both Int 3 and mindless would apply at the same time, that's a contradiction, as mindless creatures don't have a Int score - much the same way as constructs ain't got a Con score (the first being immune to mind-affecting, the second immune to critical hits).
- If mindless prevents the Int 3-score, that would contradict the rules on applying templates - new features override existing ones, unless otherwise stated.


So there's no official statement on this subject?
Should I ask custserv then? *shudder*

 

[CRGreathouse]

I would say it has Int 3, and it's _still_ immune to mind-affecting stuff. Vermin brains are just funky.

What about the worm that walks?

 

[FireLance]

From the SRD "Improving Monsters", Templates:

Size and Type: Templates often change a creature’s type, and may change the creature’s size.
If a template changes the base creature’s type, the creature also acquires the augmented subtype unless the template description indicates otherwise. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. Unless a template indicates otherwise, the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type.

From the SRD "Types, Subtypes, Abilities":

Magical Beast Type: Magical beasts are similar to animals but can have Intelligence scores higher than 2. Magical beasts usually have supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but sometimes are merely bizarre in appearance or habits.
Features: A magical beast has the following features.
—10-sided Hit Dice.
—Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
—Good Fortitude and Reflex saves.
—Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
Traits: A magical beast possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
—Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
—Proficient with its natural weapons only.
—Proficient with no armor.
—Magical beasts eat, sleep, and breathe.

Vermin Type: This type includes insects, arachnids, other arthropods, worms, and similar invertebrates.
Features: Vermin have the following features.
—8-sided Hit Dice.
—Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric).
—Good Fortitude saves.
—Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the vermin has an Intelligence score. However, most vermin are mindless and gain no skill points or feats.
Traits: Vermin possess the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
—Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
—Darkvision out to 60 feet.
—Proficient with their natural weapons only.
—Proficient with no armor.
—Vermin breathe, eat, and sleep.

Celestial and fiendish vermin lose the vermin traits but gain the magical beast traits. The net effect is that they lose their mindless trait. So by the rules, celestial and fiendish vermin do lose their immunity to mind-affecting effects. However, as Hong has suggested, you can always houserule otherwise.

 

[Flyspeck23]

Celestial and fiendish vermin lose the vermin traits but gain the magical beast traits. The net effect is that they lose their mindless trait. So by the rules, celestial and fiendish vermin do lose their immunity to mind-affecting effects. However, as Hong has suggested, you can always houserule otherwise.

OTOH, a celestial creature retains its HD - take a look at the MM 3.5, p. 31: the celestial lion still has d8 as hit dice. And BAB likewise doesn't increase (it's +3, but a magical beast of 5 hd should have BAB +5). Arguably, saves don't change as well (good saves for animals and magical beasts are the same, so the celestial lion doesn't show any changes or lack thereof).

HD, BAB and saves are traits too - but these don't change, while mindless (another trait) does?


Oh, and hong didn't talk about house rules but rather his interpretation of the rules (I may be wrong with this interpretation of hong's thoughts though ). And neither should he - this is the D&D rules board after all.

I totally agree with you: by the rules, mindless should go away. But it doesn't seem right. And: I want proof



Btw (aka OT), I've noted another arguable point: the celestial lion has LA -, where it should be LA +2 (as per the celestial template). It's got Int 3, so it could be used as a PC