Celestial vermin - Int 3 or not?

[CRGreathouse]

The ELH's worm that walks is a vermin template; the sample worm that walks has an Int score and loses its mindless trait.

 

[Flyspeck23]

The ELH's worm that walks is a vermin template; the sample worm that walks has an Int score and loses its mindless trait.

The worm that walks is an ooze, not a vermin - the example given is based on a wizard (humanoid) and not a vermin either. And the special rules explicitly mention the mindless trait (of the new ooze form, not the base creature's type). And the ELH is for 3.0, not 3.5 (I did mention that I'm looking for 3.5 rules, didn't I?)

Nice try, though. For a moment I though: "that's it!" - but then I opened my ELH

 

[ruleslawyer]

I'd say that the closest analogy for this purpose is the Vermin Companion class feature of the Vermin Lord prestige class in the FR Underdark supplement. The vermin companion loses the mindless trait, and thus DOES become vulnerable to mind-affecting effects. IMHO, this makes sense; a vermin with a real brain sounds a lot like an animal or magical beast to me.

 

[CRGreathouse]

The worm that walks is an ooze, not a vermin - the example given is based on a wizard (humanoid) and not a vermin either. And the special rules explicitly mention the mindless trait (of the new ooze form, not the base creature's type). And the ELH is for 3.0, not 3.5 (I did mention that I'm looking for 3.5 rules, didn't I?)

Nice try, though. For a moment I though: "that's it!" - but then I opened my ELH

I meant ooze, sorry. They have the same trait.

The ELH is 3.5 via the update booklet, though.

 

[Nail]

The celestial Template says:

Abilities: Same as the base creature, but Intelligence is at least 3.

...but that assumes a creature actually has an intelligence score. Vermin do not.

That is, vermin do not have an Int score, therefore it cannot be raised to 3.

 

[Len]

But that quote doesn't say that the Int was raised, it just says it is at least 3, and if it is then it exists.

 

[FireLance]

OTOH, a celestial creature retains its HD - take a look at the MM 3.5, p. 31: the celestial lion still has d8 as hit dice. And BAB likewise doesn't increase (it's +3, but a magical beast of 5 hd should have BAB +5). Arguably, saves don't change as well (good saves for animals and magical beasts are the same, so the celestial lion doesn't show any changes or lack thereof).

HD, BAB and saves are traits too - but these don't change, while mindless (another trait) does?

Actually, HD type, BAB, saves and skill points are features, not traits, and they do not change when you apply the Celestial or Fiendish template. The SRD on applying templates states "Unless a template indicates otherwise, the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type."

 

[DrSpunj]

Actually, HD type, BAB, saves and skill points are features, not traits, and they do not change when you apply the Celestial or Fiendish template. The SRD on applying templates states "Unless a template indicates otherwise, the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type."

I think this statement (also appearing on MM pg. 291 under the Size and Type heading) is pretty explicit: such a creature loses the Vermin Traits and picks up the Magical Beast Traits.

Now, I didn't realize it this afternoon as I glanced at this thread, but this very question came up for me tonight trying to prep a couple SM III options for a not-so-BBEG for my game tomorrow night. In statting out a Fiendish Huge Monstrous Centipede I ran into the same conundrum as Flyspeck23. Because of the quote from FireLance above I removed the Vermin Traits and gave it an Intelligence score of 3. After taking a mental step back and looking things over, since it now has an Intelligence score I figured it should get Feats now, right? So it's 6 HD allowed me to choose 3 feats for the beastie.

I don't know if that makes a difference to you, Flyspeck23, but I figure that's a fair trade (Vermin/mindless vs 3 Feats) and now don't feel like I'm weakening the creature any by adding the template. YMMV.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Flyspeck23]

Actually, HD type, BAB, saves and skill points are features, not traits, and they do not change when you apply the Celestial or Fiendish template. The SRD on applying templates states "Unless a template indicates otherwise, the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type."

Sorry, my fault. You're absolutely correct.

I think this statement (also appearing on MM pg. 291 under the Size and Type heading) is pretty explicit: such a creature loses the Vermin Traits and picks up the Magical Beast Traits.

Now, I didn't realize it this afternoon as I glanced at this thread, but this very question came up for me tonight trying to prep a couple SM III options for a not-so-BBEG for my game tomorrow night. In statting out a Fiendish Huge Monstrous Centipede I ran into the same conundrum as Flyspeck23. Because of the quote from FireLance above I removed the Vermin Traits and gave it an Intelligence score of 3. After taking a mental step back and looking things over, since it now has an Intelligence score I figured it should get Feats now, right? So it's 6 HD allowed me to choose 3 feats for the beastie.

I don't know if that makes a difference to you, Flyspeck23, but I figure that's a fair trade (Vermin/mindless vs 3 Feats) and now don't feel like I'm weakening the creature any by adding the template. YMMV.

A very good point. It should get feats and that would be a "fair trade".
But the question remains: any official ruling on this?

Re-reading the "vermin type", I stumbled upon this: "However, most vermin are mindless and gain no skill points or feats."
Beg your pardon, most vermin? So non-mindless vermin are a possibility, and such a creature would gain feats and skill points, right?

 

[Nail]

....After taking a mental step back and looking things over, since it now has an Intelligence score I figured it should get Feats now, right? So it's 6 HD allowed me to choose 3 feats for the beastie.

Whoa. .......Good point!

My cleric has become quite happy. He can pick 3 feats for his celestial huge monstrous centipede! Woot!

With that reach and Dex, I'm thinkin' Combat Reflexes looks good. After all, the CHM Centipede is really only good for crowd control...there are better options for up-front melee combat. At least two others.

For the second feat: Ability focus. Add a +2 DC to that Poison save, thank-you-very-much! With the Augment Summoning feat, that puts the Poison save DC at 18, which is respectible. I wonder how I can push that higher still.....

For the third feat....Hmmm......Improved Natural Attack (3d6 bite dam)? Weapon Focus(bite)? Large-and-in-charge? (If only the CHM Centipede had a higher Str, we could go with Awesome Blow).

Ideas?