Celtonia

[The Grumpy Celt]

What I’ve got so far is;
-Class society, almost as rigid as the caste system of the Indian subcontinent.
-Criminal system more concerned with fines and material redress and punitive sentences.
-Quasi-parliamentary system, with a kind of prime minister, house of lords (I forget the name I’ve given it), the courts (Brehon Courts) and a body (Tanistry Courts) which that names heirs, and thus appoints people to positions. No house of commons or house of representatives. This holds the clans and minor kingdoms together, often against there will.
-Duels painfully common, but controlled by law.
-Pagans still Polytheistic, more Orthopraxy than Orthodoxy, though they have evolved from something a lot like shamanism and animism to something more codified. The churches feud.
-Possess a religious bias.
-Mean spirited braggarts.
-Prone to unprovoked violence if they think they can get away with it.
-Human sacrifice still goes on but only to people convicted of what amounts to capital crimes.
-Racist
-There are lords of industry in the same way there are lords of land.
-Bards can have many duties; including acting as poets, actors, interpreters (multilingual), lawyers, diplomats and so forth.
-Headhunters.
-Fatalistic in the extreme.
-Honor haunted rather than honor centered.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

A very good summation. Pulls in all the appropriate themes.

 

[Phlebas]

What are Roman times by your standards? As far as I know, the Dál Riata (an Ulster tribe, indeed called Scotti - 'raiders') were settling in Scotland around the 4-5th century AD, the Viking's first known raid was about 795 AD. Together with the Dál Riata, several other Irish tribes tried to get a foothold in Cornwall/Devon, Wales, northern England and the Isle of Man, around the same time, so 4-5th century.
The Romans never went to Ireland, and they left Britain 410 AD (when the Britons left the Roman empire, after the Romans had withdrawn troops for quite a while before that). That was also the time of the Anglo-Saxon raids (yeah, I looked it up ) and the Pictish raids from nowadays Scotland.........

All correct and I apologise if I misled - I was referring to scandinavian trade and small scale settlement that pre-dated the viking raids, and although the romans officially pulled out in 410AD, the mainland remained effectively romano-british until the romanised saxon kingdoms in the 7th -8th century so roman influence didn't end suddenly.
Also, trade and settlement across the irish sea flourished from pre-roman times up to the modern day. Since Rome was primarily a commercial empire its influence spread beyond the borders of the official empire as it traded far & wide.
My main point was that its difficult to seperate out what is purely celtic from all the other influences that went on across the celtic fringe - but as the OP said - he wants a flavour of celtic lore rather than a historically pure analysis so, interesting as this discussion is i'll stop threadjacking and get back to steampunk with kilts

 

[Phlebas]

What I’ve got so far is;
-Class society, almost as rigid as the caste system of the Indian subcontinent.
-Criminal system more concerned with fines and material redress and punitive sentences.
-Quasi-parliamentary system, with a kind of prime minister, house of lords (I forget the name I’ve given it), the courts (Brehon Courts) and a body (Tanistry Courts) which that names heirs, and thus appoints people to positions. No house of commons or house of representatives. This holds the clans and minor kingdoms together, often against there will.

Looks interesting so far - I would be tempted to give the clans more prominence - maybe you can only vote within your clan to elect representative lords (from the noble class), and these clan lords vote to elect a chief of chiefs for a ten year period? If you wanted some political tension have a House of Warriors / Workers (however you structure the classes) which is currently advisory demanding some real political power. You could even have a house of Bards or Priests if you wanted these to be independent factions, or they could just have seats by right in the house of lords similar to Bishops in modern day house of lords.

At the moment it looks very similar to pre-civil war westminster with celtic names but making clans part of the political system would make your clan still meaningful even if you moved to the city away from the clan lands. I know tartans are a victorian invention, but it would fit if you were only legally allowed to wear your own clan colours, and what you wear would depend upon your rank. Eg kilts for warriors, belts for workers, torcs for nobles. (no historical basis for this, but it would combine caste and clan in a way that feels celtic)

-Duels painfully common, but controlled by law.
-Pagans still Polytheistic, more Orthopraxy than Orthodoxy, though they have evolved from something a lot like shamanism and animism to something more codified. The churches feud.
-Possess a religious bias.
-Mean spirited braggarts.
-Prone to unprovoked violence if they think they can get away with it.
-Human sacrifice still goes on but only to people convicted of what amounts to capital crimes.
-Racist

If you've ever been in Ireland around the time of the All-Ireland finals, you can see a lot of the pride you're talking about. Why not bring in Hurling / gaelic football and have a LOT of violence associated with the games and the championship more politically motivated than to do with the actual game. Also gives plenty of RP opportunities in terms of sabotage or bribery within the system. In the same way that the chariot games in constantinople evolved into political parties you could have this ritualistic contest be the channel for all the inter-clan rivalries without having minor wars all the time. Just look at Italian Football (soccer for those across the pond) these days for examples of greed, corruption, politics and crime.

Human Sacrifice for capital crimes is an interesting approach - would the individual temples draw lots, a national temple or would it be up to the victims family to claim the right? Would fit with a legal system that was more concerned with revenge than justice.

-There are lords of industry in the same way there are lords of land.
-Bards can have many duties; including acting as poets, actors, interpreters (multilingual), lawyers, diplomats and so forth.
-Headhunters.
-Fatalistic in the extreme.
-Honor haunted rather than honor centered.

Bard maybe becoming a honorary title n the same way diplomat / ambassador / special representative is today - or possibly the bardic universities now produce civil servants with large amounts of historical knowledge to advise the elected leaders - if you've ever seen 'Yes Minister'/ 'Yes Prime Minister', Sir Humphrey with his classics background and polished manner could easily have been a Bard

I like the idea of honour haunted though - that fatalistic view may well be the defining characteristic keeping Celtonia together

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

...get back to steampunk with kilts

You got a lot of good points here. Thank you.

Clans are important but I've not created them yet.

There is no voting to select an person for office, lords are judges are simply appointed to those positions from the established nobility by the Tanistry Courts. There is no real social mobility and the lower classes have no voice in government.

Who gets what criminal to kill as a human sacrifice is usually up the the sentencing judge, and the druids who serve all the gods and have to decide which needs the sacrifice.

But they've got trains and lots of iron and maybe some zepplins. Can't go wrong with zepplins.

 

[GrumpyOldMan]

Can't go wrong with zepplins.

I don't think that the crew and passengers of the hindenburg would agree.

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

I don't think that the crew and passengers of the hindenburg would agree.

They got what they had coming.

Anyhow, does anyone else have thoughts of this Celtic Steam Punk setting?

 

[GrumpyOldMan]

Celts? Who They?

The BBC History page says:

However, there is one thing that the Romans, modern archaeologists and the Iron Age islanders themselves would all agree on: they were not Celts. This was an invention of the 18th century; the name was not used earlier. The idea came from the discovery around 1700 that the non-English island tongues relate to that of the ancient continental Gauls, who really were called Celts. This ancient continental ethnic label was applied to the wider family of languages. But 'Celtic' was soon extended to describe insular monuments, art, culture and peoples, ancient and modern: island 'Celtic' identity was born, like Britishness, in the 18th century.

Check out http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/peoples_01.shtml for the early and fascinating history of the British Isles, and throw away those stereotypes.

 

[Lorthanoth]

They got what they had coming.

Whoa.

Not appropriate.

 

[S'mon]

Check out http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/peoples_01.shtml for the early and fascinating history of the British Isles, and throw away those stereotypes.

And get some new stereotypes.

The history of the British isles is one of both continuity and discontinuity. The discontinuities (eg the Anglo-Saxon invasions) and population changes used to be what was emphasised, now it's the continuities that are emphasised. This is more due to changes in modern culture and politics than to new discoveries - even 100 years ago I don't think anyone claimed that the (eg) Saxons literally exterminated the (eg) Romano-British; rather they killed their leaders, married their women, and changed the culture.