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Certain types of armor are never worn.

reapersaurus

Explorer
Elder-Basilisk said:
What I don't understand is why "obvious optimal choices" make 3.x armor poorly designed.
ummm... because this is a GAME? :D
:rolleyes:

a) I hope noone believes that all the stats for weapon damage, armor, etc are 'true to reality'.

Given that assumption,
b) it is up to the game designers to give VALID choices for a character to take.
Creating 12 or so armors, but only 3 or 4 of them are 'reasonable' choices (~1 in each category, once you cobble together a few coin) does not indicate a good selection.
In other words, it's BAD game design.

Many other people see this flaw - for you to basically defend the oversight with "that flaw is similar to real armors in history" is strange to me.
Do you run a totally-realistic game, with only human history to draw from?
Remind me not to sign up for it, if so... ;)
 

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Tatsukun

Danjin Masutaa
My first thought as to why anyone would wear something other than heavy armor is that they don’t need help to put it on. 40 rounds is a lot to be out of commission (you and another person helping you).

Of course, there’s also skill checks. As for skills, if you wear plate, you are at -6 or -7. That can really hurt if you want to be able to do things like climb, swim, or tumble.

But, I still don’t see why anyone would wear half-plate in particular unless they found a really cool magic suit.

-Tatsu
 

Felon

First Post
pawsplay said:
I'd like to point out that when the Spaniards landed in the New World, they were wearing breastplates, not chainmail. Breastplates are better, they're also a little more expensive.

Well, that's all true although it does beg the question of why any medium armor should be worn in the first place, instead of just buying a chain shirt. The maneuverability drawbacks for medium armor pretty easily outweigh a +1 armor bonus (unless maybe if you're a dwarven cleric). And if you can wear heavy armor, splint's better AC for the same cost as a breastplate.

There is more than one optimal armor in each category, depending on what you are trying to optimize. There are some armors that are attractive only to paupers, but that's only to be expected.

I think the reasonable expectation for the armor system is that within a given armor subtype (light, medium, and heavy) the more protective armors should carry a more severe max Dex limit, Armor check penalty, and spell failure rate. Half-plate would then be a better choice for some characters than full plate (all other things being equal). Moreover, I also think it's reasonable that medium armor should have some significant advantage over heavy armor, just as light offers a major advantage over medium.

Tatsukun said:
My first thought as to why anyone would wear something other than heavy armor is that they don’t need help to put it on. 40 rounds is a lot to be out of commission (you and another person helping you). Of course, there’s also skill checks. As for skills, if you wear plate, you are at -6 or -7. That can really hurt if you want to be able to do things like climb, swim, or tumble.

Once again, folks, the original post was not asking why anyone would choose to wear anything other than heavy armor. It did, in fact, suggest that a chain shirt was one of the more optimal choices.
 
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kirinke

First Post
Tatsukun said:
My first thought as to why anyone would wear something other than heavy armor is that they don’t need help to put it on. 40 rounds is a lot to be out of commission (you and another person helping you).

Of course, there’s also skill checks. As for skills, if you wear plate, you are at -6 or -7. That can really hurt if you want to be able to do things like climb, swim, or tumble.

But, I still don’t see why anyone would wear half-plate in particular unless they found a really cool magic suit.

-Tatsu
precisely what i was getting at.
the heavier armors are usually worn to impress people or when you're going straight to battle.
lighter armors like chain, leather, studded leather etc are worn when your traveling (and expecting trouble) and also skirmishers prefer the lighter armor because it's not as difficult to get in and out of nor is it as heavy or as uncomfortable. Padded armor is worn by the poor fighters and during practice sessions. etc.
 

two

First Post
reapersaurus said:
ummm... because this is a GAME? :D
:rolleyes:

a) I hope noone believes that all the stats for weapon damage, armor, etc are 'true to reality'.

Given that assumption,
b) it is up to the game designers to give VALID choices for a character to take.
Creating 12 or so armors, but only 3 or 4 of them are 'reasonable' choices (~1 in each category, once you cobble together a few coin) does not indicate a good selection.
In other words, it's BAD game design.

Many other people see this flaw - for you to basically defend the oversight with "that flaw is similar to real armors in history" is strange to me.
Do you run a totally-realistic game, with only human history to draw from?
Remind me not to sign up for it, if so... ;)

Snippiness aside, this is the real point.

The D&D weapons are beautifully balanced mechanically, with threat range, damage, critical multiplier, reach, etc. all considered. Nobody really has a problem with how these are implemented, even if they are completely daffy from a historical perspective. Why? It makes for great game play, it's easy, it's slick, it's fun. Done. Whatever losses are made to "reality" are more than compensated for by the fun factor.

With armor, it's definately not the case. Mechanically they are horribly balanced, with only a few "clear winners" in each catgory. As soon as PC's or NPC's get to be 3rd level or higher, these armors will be used exclusively, barried odd circumstances. The only thing keeping PC's back is $$, and D&D is a money-heavy game. It's not a drawback for very long.

Imagine if everyone still used a longsword because it was the "best" weapon mechanically? How boring. Glad they fixed this once and for all.

Chain shirt. Mithril. How boring. Too bad they have not fixed this. At all.
 

Wolffenjugend

First Post
reapersaurus said:
The fact of the matter is, and HAS been for years, that 3E armor is badly designed, with obvious optimal choices.

Ummm, 3E (and 3.5E) armour is designed based on historical armour - not the other way around. I guess you missed that. D&D didn't make the types of armour up so that every class would have a suit tailored to its needs. D&D tried to provide statistics for some of the most common armours found throughout the world. D&D armour does not, and SHOULD not, be treated as a means of equalizing classes.

Of course some armour are more "optimal" than others. That's obvious. Otherwise certain types of armour would never have become obsolete over the course of history. If someone chooses scale mail over full plate, then they are probably doing so for a very good reason. But to think that scale mail should be improved to make it more popular misses the entire concept of armour by a country mile. Farmers could plow their fields with horses but they use tractors instead. By some peoples' arguments (in D&D terms at least), horses should be given greater stats to make them more "optimal." Sheesh.
 

Elder-Basilisk

First Post
I don't think so.

The analogy to D&D weapons falls apart on several levels.

First, D&D weapons are NOT all balanced. Some are obviously better than others for most purposes. As one handed weapons, the bastard sword and dwarven waraxe are clearly the best although they require a feat to use (well, they do for everyone except dwarves who can use waraxes as long as they have martial weapon proficiency). Among martial one-handed weapons, the longsword, battle axe, and warhammer are clearly class 1 weapons with the scimitar filling in the "I want to crit a lot" category and the rapier filling in the "for finesse fighters" category. Rapiers are generally superior to shortswords or throwing axes. Longswords, etc are clearly superior to heavy maces, morning stars, and clubs. Similarly, among the two handed weapons, the greatsword is clearly the damage king with the falchion and greataxe filling niche roles and the spear for those who aren't proficient in martial weapons.

I and many others would complain (and rightly so) if the game made a club as effective as a longsword or had the quarterstaff or greatclub doing as much damage as the greatsword.

What would people think of a modern combat focussed game that made no distinction between the damage of a deer rifle and an elephant rifle but insisted that they had to be "balanced"? Or one that equated civil war sniper rifles with modern sniper rifles. (Considering the relatively short time period included, this is similar to asking chain mail to be the equal of a breastplate).

As far as armor goes, you and others are missing the point about the mechanical balance. The difference between chain mail and a breastplate, for instance is max dex and armor check penalty. For a lot of characters--especially NPC fighters who tend not to have a high dex, the "optimal" breastplate is NOT significantly better than the "suboptimal" chainmail. Similarly, for most NPCs (who rarely have dexterities above 18), the "optimal" mithral chain shirt is not significantly better than an ordinary chain shirt. And when one does account for other differences, they are generally not more than one or two points of AC. A PC who chose to wear studded leather instead of a chain shirt would not suffer much. Even the PC who chose to wear banded mail instead of fullplate would not be too disadvantaged. The disadvantage would be real but probably not much more than that encountered by the fighter who uses a morning star instead of a longsword or a longspear instead of a glaive. (And I've seen both).

As far as the question of being optimal goes, I think it's clear that this is only true in specific environments. On shipboard adventures, I've seen a lot of clerics and paladins pulling on chain shirts or leather armor. It would behoove some low strength rogues and rangers without ranks in swim to trade their traditional chain shirts in for leather too. The same is true to some extent in the desert and other areas where the environment effects armors.

Now, as to PCs using the armors, it's important to remember that there are a lot of corner cases. The low-strength spellcasting cleric isn't an uncommon character type and frequently can't afford the weight of fullplate. (Mine wears leather armor at 5th level and has no intention of changing--no matter what she does, she won't even have a decent AC so there's no point in bothering). Fighters with a 14 or 15 dex really gain no advantage from the breastplate over their initial chain mail so until they get whatever armor they're finally shooting for they may not change. (My character still often wears her chain mail at 3rd level). Etc, etc. When corner cases are taken into account, there's plenty of difference in PC equipment at low-mid levels. (And the ones that dissappear at high levels are made up for by those who decide that they want the DMG's mithral splint mail of speed, Rhino Hide armor (although that's mostly 3.0), Celestial Armor (the real armor for the dex freak and it allows the wearer to fly), or their hyper dex makes "no armor" the ideal choice for them).

For NPCs, it's important to remember that A. their typically lower stats mean that many optimizations important for PCs are irrelevant to them and many optimizations irrelevant to PCs are relevant to them (encumbrance is typically more important for NPCs than PCs because of their generally lower strength and their lower access to things like bags of holding and handy haversacks) and B. Their financial situation is very different from the "adventurer's assumed standard. A sergeant in the army might well be 3rd level but still be wearing his army issued chain mail. It protects him well enough against most 1st and 2nd level warriors and he spends his paycheck on either ale and whores or on buying a new plow and a new field for his family to farm. Similarly, an NPC rogue may be dirt poor because of his gambling habit, etc. And C. Their typical challenges may make optimization far less relevant to them. The high priest of Heironeous in Greyhawk's temple doesn't often need to lead a war or go adventuring so the splint mail that lasted him until 3rd level (when he was transferred away from the Furyondian front and to Greyhawk city) may be the best armor he's ever found it advantageous to buy. For his position, a royal outfit, ring of mind shielding, and circlet of persuasion are far more useful than a suit of +3 fullplate.

two said:
Snippiness aside, this is the real point.

The D&D weapons are beautifully balanced mechanically, with threat range, damage, critical multiplier, reach, etc. all considered. Nobody really has a problem with how these are implemented, even if they are completely daffy from a historical perspective. Why? It makes for great game play, it's easy, it's slick, it's fun. Done. Whatever losses are made to "reality" are more than compensated for by the fun factor.

With armor, it's definately not the case. Mechanically they are horribly balanced, with only a few "clear winners" in each catgory. As soon as PC's or NPC's get to be 3rd level or higher, these armors will be used exclusively, barried odd circumstances. The only thing keeping PC's back is $$, and D&D is a money-heavy game. It's not a drawback for very long.

Imagine if everyone still used a longsword because it was the "best" weapon mechanically? How boring. Glad they fixed this once and for all.

Chain shirt. Mithril. How boring. Too bad they have not fixed this. At all.
 

Steverooo

First Post
My experience:

Well, my Ranger started off with leather... It was light, cheap, and didn't force him to suffer Armor Check Penalties of HALF his stealth, at level 1....

At second level, he bought a suit of MW Studded Leather. A bit heavier, but +1 AC, and still no ACP. Later, he got it enchanted to +1, and kept it until 7th level or so, when he found a suit of +2 with special ability.

Sure, by then he could have bought a mithril chain shirt, but this was better. So he used the studded leather until he could acquire a suit of magical mithril chain.

So, PART of the problem is allowing magic items to be bought! :eek: (That's another thread!) If the PCs have to subsist on what they find, will they prefer the Mithral Chain Shirt to the +2 Studded Leather of Acid Resistance, or whatever?... Possibly, but it is doubtful.

Add in some restricted-use items, and you can do almost anything... A MW suit of banded mail, which is magically enchanted to grant its +3 AC Enhancement Bonus only to Dwarven Fighters of Good Alignment, for instance, will probably be used by a PC in favor of Full Plate... ESPECIALLY if it's Mithral! :p

I have no problem with the armors, and PREFER them being based on the historical types. What I might do, if I changed anything, would be to up the Spell Failure %. Back in 1e, Padded or worse gave you 100%! :D
 
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Creamsteak

Explorer
My only complaint is that there isn't a +6 armor bonus with a +2 max dex bonus. Chainmail < Breastplate, so a +3 dex, +4 dex, +5 dex, +6 dex, and +7 or better all have optimal armors, but +2 dex doesn't.
 

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