Challenge the Players, Not the Characters' Stats

xechnao

First Post
This is one way of RPGing. But look at what Christopher Adams (mhacdebhandia) is posting in this thread - there are other ways of playing RPGs in which the PC is not the player's vehicle, but rather the player's tool. And in that sort of RPGing it is very common to connect with the other players independently of one's PC (ie the play is comparatively metagame heavy).

What Christopher says is not something different really. If you think about it, eventually it is the same thing. Actually I think what he is advocating for stands for roleplaying while what he is advocating against is another game entirely: not a roleplaying game.
 
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Mallus

Legend
As you say, whenever the DM is describing the fictional setting, characters in that setting and relating the perceivable effects of thier actions it is all narration.

Whenever the DM is interacting with the PC's from the perspective of an NPC or creature, that is roleplaying.
So narration is exposition and role-playing is dialog? Thanks, that I can understand.

But I suspect howandwhy means something else, because he states "it's impossible to narrate while GM'ing". From my prospective, GM'ing is mostly the act of narration. Player's state intended actions, GM's narrate the results and consequences. So I'm curious how howandwhy's using the word.

If the DM and players roleplay throughout the session they are generating fiction. The end result of that roleplaying session may result in a story or at least a part of one.
Agreed -- with the caveat the session always results in all or part of a story. How can it not?

In storytelling you are guiding your fictional persona through challenges and scenes.

In roleplaying you are reacting to stimuli and events as perceived by your fictional persona.
Aha... okay. This helps a lot. I view these acts as the same thing. Or rather, I can't imagine how you can honestly draw a distinction between them during play. When I'm running a character, I'm consciously aware of both guiding my fictional persona and experiencing things as my fictional persona (as I'm also aware that I'm a guy eating delicious saag paneer, seeing as my group usually orders great Indian take out on game night...).

In the end RPG's are just another act of writing to me, so as much as I may enjoy 'getting into the character', the awareness that I'm also the author is never far from the front of my mind.

... and neither one is wrongbadfun.
Hey, more agreement, sweet...
 

The Little Raven

First Post
We've got 220 pages of "rules for stuff" and 1 page of "ignore all that crap; do what's fun."

220 pages is about building a campaign. Page 42 is about players wanting to do actions that they don't have solid rules for, it is absolutely not "ignore the rest of the book," as nothing written on that page invalidates the encounter building formulas, the rules for diseases and poisons, templates, or anything else you claim it tells you to ignore.
 

The Little Raven

First Post
Well I must have been doing it wrong for decades and must be crazy for enjoying doing it the wrong way.

This has nothing to do with what we're talking about. The topic at hand is not how you have been doing things, it's about how you claim the PHB says one thing when it most certainly says something entirely different.

You: All the PHB says is that you have to pick the skill.
Us: "It's up to you to think of ways you can use your skills to meet the challenges you face." It explicitly states that you have to think of ways to use your skills, not just pick a skill.
You: Well, if we reword it to say what I say it says, then it says what I say it says.

Again that little passage tells you nothing but to know which skill to use when, and not how, or how in depth you need to. the bare minimum for a skill challenge is to make a few die rolls for the skill checks.

If that what you claim it says, then you have not actually read it. And if you have read it, then you are not comprehending what the words actually say.

"It's up to you to think of ways you can use your skills to meet the challenges you face."

Are you trying to deny that a skill challenge can be overcome and passed by JUST making the required number of successful skill checks?

Not trying. Flat out denying, because unlike your claim, mine is actually backed up by the text in the book.

When posed with a problem like the door to Moria would you use your Diplomacy to pass it?

If you can come up with an acceptable way to use it, I might give it a shot. However, just saying "I use Diplomacy" isn't thinking of a way to use the skill.

Would you use your Acrobatics?

I doubt backflips would impress the door.

Would you use Arcana?

Perhaps. Depends on what the description of the action to be performed with Arcana ends up being, and how appropriate it is to the situation.

The simplest way to use the skills to meet the challenges you face is to use the correct one for the skill check.

Which completely ignores the actual text in the book that tells you, flat out and with no ambiguity whatsoever, that it is up to you to think of ways to use the skill. You do know that "ways" in that sentence is a synonym for "method," which is the "how" of using a skill, right?
 

Irda Ranger

First Post
This brings up a different issue. I prefer to run combat in a more continuous rather than discrete manner. e.g. If both sides charge, they meet in the middle rather than the side with initiative covering the whole distance while the other side is frozen until their “turn”.
I would be interested to hear how you handle initiative.

Oh, and by the way, I've fleshed out your injury table at Dragonsfoot in the Classic D&D forum. I'd love to hear what your experiences with it have been.
 


MrMyth

First Post
While this may allow for emulation of the ruleset in computer medium, it also tends to prevent the free-form abilities of the past generations of the game.

I have to really object to this statement - nothing about the rules is preventing the ability to run free-form roleplaying challenges and scenarios. That is simply outright incorrect. While I disagreed with your previous claim - that the rules discouraged such activity - I could see how you could get that impression.

But there is absolutely nothing stopping a DM from running a free-form puzzle or social event.

You ignored my previous post, in which I discussed the fact that the DMG has guidelines for running such free-form puzzles - and, indeed, the default is to have them driven by player skill (as you like it) rather than by character skill. One of the earliest quotes in the PHB indicates the same thing - some non-combat challenges you overcome through your character's skills, some require creative solutions and clever uses of magic, and some require your wits alone. That seems to be telling the players quite directly that skill checks alone don't solve everything!

Now, let's take a step back from 4E itself. The issue at hand, honestly, is one that has long been debated about by roleplayers.

Should a character be limited by the capabilities of the player?

We don't require the player of a powerful fighter to be able to swing a sword with skill and strength in real life - should we require the player of a diplomat to genuinely be a smooth talker and skilled negotiator, or can he resolve such skills with a simple roll?

I've seen players fall on both sides of the fence, and if that is how they prefer to play, than there is no one to say that they are wrong. The rules themselves allow for both - nothing in the rules says that if a player gives a rousing and brilliant speech, you have to force them to roll a die for it to count. Nothing in the rules says that if you confront the players with a devious and intricate puzzle, and one of them instantly sees the solution, you have to force them to roll a die for their character to claim the same knowledge.

But what you do have is different opinions among players - and the biggest disruptions that arise from this are when a player and a DM view things in a different fashion.

I've seen a DM who required the player of a rogue to fully detail every action his rogue was taking in any attempt to disarm a trap, and if anything is out of place, the rogue sets off the trap regardless of what he might roll.

For some, this is great - the challenge is to the player, not the character. The player needs to think up every way the DM might have trapped the doorway and come up with a reasonable solution to avoid setting it off. But for others... well, the player of the rogue simply is not as knowledgeable as his character. He doesn't have any experience with traps. He can't predict how the DM has trapped the doorway, or what slight mistep he might make to allow the DM to screw him over. All he knows is that his character is supposed to be good at traps... and yet, because of how the DM is running it, the rogue fails at it every time.

Either method is a valid one... as long as everyone at the table is happy with it. And on such a fundamental question, there is always going to be disagreement. You yourself gave the example of a puzzle where you wanted to solve it with your personal skills... but another player wanted to solve it with a roll, and when he did so, it detracted from your enjoyment of the game.

No one was playing incorrectly. You just had different goals, and that specific table was, apparently, not suited to your playstyle. That isn't an issue with the rules - that is an issue with the group you were playing with.

For myself, I like to combine the two elements. For a social situation, I am likely to run a skill challenge with rolls being the deciding factor (assuming characters choose the right skills to use in the right fashion.) But using skills well will merit bonuses on those checks. If someone makes a Diplomacy check, and gives a brilliant and rousing speech in person, they'll get a +2 bonus to the roll, or more. If someone thinks up a creative skill use, like making a History check to remember some famous deed of the kings, on which they can compliment him to win his favor - then I might give them an extra success if they are able to pull it off.

On the other hand, for a puzzle or riddle, I'm likely to let player skill be the deciding factor - they need to actually solve the puzzle to proceed. But if players are having difficulty, I will let them make rolls to gain clues and hints - not an outright answer, but some extra bits of info that might steer them in the right direction.

That's my personal preference, and people I play with seem to largely agree with those methods - and that is the important part. There is no single right way to run such things, and the rules allow for the entire spectrum, from resolving challenges through countless rolls to resolving challenges through free-form roleplaying.

What matters is that you are using the right method for your group - and that isn't something the rules can decide for you.

They most certainly don't have any element that actively prevents you from playing the way you desire. Claiming that anything about 4E stands in your way from sitting around the table and roleplaying having dinner with the king, without ever rolling a single die... well, such a claim is simply wrong. Roleplaying is entirely determined by the people at the table, and nothing in the 4E rules changes that.
 

But I suspect howandwhy means something else, because he states "it's impossible to narrate while GM'ing". From my prospective, GM'ing is mostly the act of narration. Player's state intended actions, GM's narrate the results and consequences. So I'm curious how howandwhy's using the word.

In my own opinion I don't see it that way exactly. I will go so far as saying that its impossible to narrate while roleplaying, and as a GM I switch between the two as the situation demands.
 


GlaziusF

First Post
Not to pick on The Little Raven, but I think the fact that people keep referring to page 42 kind of high-lights the problem. My 4E DMG has 221 pages. Which means that page 42 is outnumbered 220:1.

Now quantity isn't everything. But it ain't nothin' neither. We've got 220 pages of "rules for stuff" and 1 page of "ignore all that crap; do what's fun." Feels like an afterthought to me, not a design principle.

Actually, page 42 is referenced pretty frequently by the DMG as well, especially in the sections on skill challenges and creating your own monsters. The reason I know what everybody means by "page 42" at all is because I go look at it way more than I do any of the other 220 pages.

I'm not going to say "page 42 is the DMG, the rest is commentary" but there's a decent larger section that's just examples of specific applications for the stuff on page 42.

Here's something I've done with the stuff on page 42.
 

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