Challenging Challenge Ratings...again

Hiya mate! :)

Kerrick said:
I'm not surprised BoED has some, but I don't have it. Or Ascension, whatever that is. I can check the SpC, though.

What blasphemy is this! :o

On another note: question for UK.

Fire away.

Kerrick said:
Templates add an ECL bonus. NWN treats ECLs as levels in whatever monster type you have (for example, wemic is ECL +3, so you have 3 levels of beast). I want to try this for templates, but how would I translate the ECL bonus into class levels? Is it straight across, or would the class level be a percentage of the ECL bonus?

1 Class Level = 1 ECL.

ECL means Effective Class Level. ;)
 

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Upper_Krust said:
I know you and a few others here are vociferously pro-3E.

Damn right!

But I honestly believe that in the cold light of day (when 4E is released) 90+% of 3E epic gamers will jump ship.

I don't think that's true; and even if it is true, I think that'll have far less to do with the system than it will with it being the bandwagon. As it stands now, 4E doesn't even allow for gaming above 30th level (in that PC progression apparently stops there); only if someone picks up the 4E Ascension will that even be possible. At least 3.5 let you go as high as you want, even if the math did become more and more difficult over time.

And, quite frankly, I don't like nerfing. Yes 4E is less complex, but when you subtract a lot of the math and sacrifice flexibility, that's what you get in exchange. I could play any number of even simpler RPGs and - after maxing out what numerical systems they have - then say that they're even easier at epic levels. But that's also boring. I want myriad options and limitless possibilities.

And, quite honestly, I take some issue with how sacred the idea of "balance" has become. If the CR of a monster isn't exactly equal to the average party level, then things won't really be that bad, so long as it's close enough. Similarly, all of the PCs don't have to be exactly equal in power, so long as they're near-equal. 3.5 is what I know works for me now, and I'm certainly not going to say that 4E is better - particularly for epic games - when so little of it is visible.
 

Upper_Krust said:
ECL means Effective Class Level. ;)

No, it really doesn't.

SRD said:
Starting Level of a Monster PC
Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics. Add a monster’s level adjustment to its Hit Dice and class levels to get the creature’s effective character level, or ECL. Effectively, monsters with a level adjustment become multiclass character when they take class levels. A creature’s “monster class” is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it.

:p
 

Upper_Krust said:
I know you and a few others here are vociferously pro-3E. But I honestly believe that in the cold light of day (when 4E is released) 90+% of 3E epic gamers will jump ship.
Not this one. I've taken a "wait and see" attitude with regard to 4E, and what I've seen so far I mostly don't like. As Alzrius said, simplifying things and forcing them into balance has mostly had an apparent nerfing effect, and that turns me off in a big way. But for the moment, I remain willing to check it out when it arrives and reserve final judgement for when I've read the three core rulebooks. Then, and only then, will I decide whether I'll make the jump to 4th Edition in any way.
 

I'm definitely going to agree with them. Wait to do 4th Edition until you have finished all the 3.5 stuff. I know I'm not the only one who would still like to see all those 3.5 monsters we were promised.

It's one thing to like 4th Edition, it's quite another to become so fanatical about it that you leave all your 3.5 fans in the dust. We've been here for years now and will be here for years to come.

Sure...make the 4th edition stuff...but after you have completed the 3.5 stuff. Otherwise, you'll be crushing our hopes of ever seeing the 3.5 stuff come to light.

I don't know about the others. But I've already been waiting over a year to see those monsters from the other Bestiaries you have planned. Especially templated monsters like the Nosferatu, ect.

It would basically be false advertising not to finish what you started just because WOTC came out with a new product that you like.

Taking the EASY ROUTE, is definitely not the best idea you've had. Especially since you had so many wonderful ideas for 3.5 that would have made playing 3.5 indefinitely more plausible for those who don't own 3 million books.

Epic material is hard to come by...and yours is the best. Please don't deny us our 3.5.
 

Well to be honest I think AC = 3/4 HD is probably better for Dragons, but the official rules ALWAYS use the AC = HD -1 so I just blindly followed that. But Dragons really have scalemail rather than full platemail (unless its something like the Titanium Dragon I guess).
Yeah, but if you use AC = 3/4 HD (even accounting for the size modifier), our CR 35 great wyrm silver dragon ends up being AC 46 (-8 size, +44 NA), which is well below where it should be (55). If you go with HD-1, it becomes 55 (-8 size, +53 NA), which is dead on.

See, the problem here, from what I can see after doing a few calculations, is that any formula you use based on CR won't apply equally across all age categories for some reason (it's probably because dragons' CRs are so high compared to their HD). Give me some time and I could probably find one, but I think the designers just said "screw it" and made it HD-1 because it was easiest. Bah, now I've got a challenge... I'll figure this out.

No, it really doesn't.
Alzrius is right - the total is the ECL, not just the added HD/class levels. So I'm thinking I could just take 2/3 of the LA and use that as the HD/level adjustment. That makes a bit more sense - vampire, frex, is LA +7, but there's no way in hell I'd add 7 levels of undead to something. 4 levels sounds a bit closer to the mark.
 

Krusty is seriously considering a 4E jump.

When I was in London, obviously I did as much gaming as possible, and to be honest I am becoming more and more disenchanted with 3rd Edition. Its unnecessarily complicated at low levels and nightmarishly complex at epic levels (even after I tried to dumb down as much as possible).
3.5 does have its flaws, to be sure... but 4E doesn't fix them - it just builds an entirely new system. That's one of the issues I have with 4E - despite its flaws, 3.5 works. Even that wouldn't have been enough to turn me off, if they'd done it right; I just don't like 4E, from what I've seen, because it looks too tactical and too ToB for my taste. Everyone can teleport around the map, and "shift" themselves and their opponents, and... ugh. I like using using minis, but I have lousy spatial perception (and let's face it - they're fun to paint and they look cool :D). But... a game that's centered around minis, that effectively removes the choice of whether or not you want to use them, is not a game a lot of people want to play.

I can understand it from a business POV - they want to tie it more closely to their minis line so they can make more money - but that doesn't mean I have to buy into it. My books aren't going to burst into flame on June 6th, and my ability to write new material (either for myself or for publication) isn't going to suddenly vanish.

My books are in excellent condition (despite heavy use), I've got tons of material that I can't (and won't) convert over, and there won't be an SRD like the one we have now that I could refer to... And, really, I can't afford it. That, more than anything, is the largest deciding factor. I don't know anyone around here who is, either, so I can't borrow their books, even if I were interested. And really, I enjoy designing for 3.5. It took me several years and a lot of work to get to where I am now in terms of knowledge of the system, and I don't want to flush most of it down the toilet to learn a new system.

Instead, I'll keep working on my 3.75 revision. The change to 4E has offered us a unique opportunity - Paizo's jumped on it with both feet, and so am I. The difference is, I'm not going for publication, so that cuts down my production time/costs. :) I've identified many of the major flaws in the system and am working on correcting them at low levels (which, incidentally, will provide a lot of fixes for high-level play) - immunities, BAB/saves, spells, skills, the wealth system, etc. And yes, I'm borrowing some of your rules - the CR/EL system chief among them - to help.

And, quite honestly, I take some issue with how sacred the idea of "balance" has become. If the CR of a monster isn't exactly equal to the average party level, then things won't really be that bad, so long as it's close enough.
Yeah - once you hit epic, the CR increments space out even further, so the range of creatures that could provide a challenge for the PCs keeps increasing. The whole "balance" is getting a bit absurd - with everything being tied to numbers more closely than ever before, it's become easier to balance things out, but it's also become easier for rules lawyers to point out things that are broken. I think that's why the pendulum swung the other way for 4E - they wanted a looser, more flexible system where the DM could fudge things here and there and still be able to provide a challenge for the party.
 

Hiya Alzrius mate! :)

Unfortunately this will be my only post on the matter today, I have a small window of online opportunity before I have to go back to work. But I enjoy a lively discussion, so I'll be back tomorrow.

Alzrius said:
I don't think that's true; and even if it is true, I think that'll have far less to do with the system than it will with it being the bandwagon.

I think there is always going to be some people who jump on the bandwagon and like it because its shiny and new. I am not one of those people. What I am talking about is a clear contrast between the two mechanical systems. For me 4E seems better in every department.

Alzrius said:
As it stands now, 4E doesn't even allow for gaming above 30th level (in that PC progression apparently stops there); only if someone picks up the 4E Ascension will that even be possible. At least 3.5 let you go as high as you want, even if the math did become more and more difficult over time.

How is that any different from 3E requiring you to buy the Epic Level Handbook?

In 3E, progression stopped at 20th.

And, quite frankly, I don't like nerfing. Yes 4E is less complex, but when you subtract a lot of the math and sacrifice flexibility, that's what you get in exchange. I could play any number of even simpler RPGs and - after maxing out what numerical systems they have - then say that they're even easier at epic levels. But that's also boring. I want myriad options and limitless possibilities.

What is this 'flexibility' you feel is being sacrificed? How does 3E offer myriad options and limitless possibilities, while 4E does not (assuming my 4E book would fill the place of the 3E ELH)?

And, quite honestly, I take some issue with how sacred the idea of "balance" has become. If the CR of a monster isn't exactly equal to the average party level, then things won't really be that bad, so long as it's close enough. Similarly, all of the PCs don't have to be exactly equal in power, so long as they're near-equal. 3.5 is what I know works for me now, and I'm certainly not going to say that 4E is better - particularly for epic games - when so little of it is visible.

Since when have the different classes at epic level been near-equal? There are massive disparities between the martial and spellcaster classes in 3.5E! Why do you think my version of the Fighter, Paladin and Barbarian classes were WAY more powerful than the core classes! Even Wizards own Tome of Battle classes were far more powerful than the core martial classes.

I agree that perfect balance is just folly, but you don't want a situation where some classes are virtually 50% better than others.
 

Hi there! :)

Managed to sneak an extra 25 minutes online before work. ;)

paradox42 said:
Not this one. I've taken a "wait and see" attitude with regard to 4E, and what I've seen so far I mostly don't like. As Alzrius said, simplifying things and forcing them into balance has mostly had an apparent nerfing effect, and that turns me off in a big way. But for the moment, I remain willing to check it out when it arrives and reserve final judgement for when I've read the three core rulebooks. Then, and only then, will I decide whether I'll make the jump to 4th Edition in any way.

The simplification is mostly for DMs (thus NPCs and Monsters). PCs still have tons of options, with each class having lots to do. Every class is relevant at all levels with choices that do not simply boil down to "full attack" for martial classes.
 

Hi dante mate! :)

dante58701 said:
I'm definitely going to agree with them. Wait to do 4th Edition until you have finished all the 3.5 stuff.

So about 25 years time then...and I think we both know I'm not joking on that.

I know I'm not the only one who would still like to see all those 3.5 monsters we were promised.

They can always be converted over.

It's one thing to like 4th Edition, it's quite another to become so fanatical about it that you leave all your 3.5 fans in the dust. We've been here for years now and will be here for years to come.

I prefer to think of you guys as fans of epic/immortal gaming, not as fans of the 3rd Edition D&D system.

Maybe people who started with 3rd Edition have more of a fondness for it. I didn't. I started with original D&D and have played my way through. Systems come and go. At the time 3rd Edition seemed like the holy grail, but its too longwinded and it absolutely strangles epic gaming. 1st Edition AD&D was a more fun game than 3rd Edition.

Sure...make the 4th edition stuff...but after you have completed the 3.5 stuff. Otherwise, you'll be crushing our hopes of ever seeing the 3.5 stuff come to light.

As I have said, the various monsters and deities can be converted.

I don't know about the others. But I've already been waiting over a year to see those monsters from the other Bestiaries you have planned. Especially templated monsters like the Nosferatu, ect.

Theres no reason why they couldn't be done in 4E and then converted over.

It would basically be false advertising not to finish what you started just because WOTC came out with a new product that you like.

The plan is still to release those books, just not with the 3.5E system. Just because I am stupid enough to put down my future plans on the website doesn't mean I have to be shackled to their every word for the rest of my life.

Taking the EASY ROUTE, is definitely not the best idea you've had. Especially since you had so many wonderful ideas for 3.5 that would have made playing 3.5 indefinitely more plausible for those who don't own 3 million books.

Its not about taking the easy route its about taking the smart route. If 3.5 was better or even as good for epic gaming I'd never change. But its clearly worse.

Epic material is hard to come by...and yours is the best. Please don't deny us our 3.5.

Epic material is hard to come by because its so complicated that no one else wants to make it and only the brave and/or foolish dare to play it.
 

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