Challenging Higher Level PC's

[Pants]

Well, the PC's in my campaign are about to breach into the High Level zone soon. The Sun Elf Wizard and the Dwarven Rogue are close to 15th Level and the other characters aren't too far behind. So far, I think the campaign is a blast, but I must say that this will be the first time that I've ever run a game with characters this high. I'm reeling at the thought of the Wizard throwing around 8th level spells, let alone 9th level spells and already I'm starting to wonder how much is too much, in terms of challenges.

Just a little rundown of campaign history. Basically, I plan on ending the campaign when they get to around 19th or 20th level. The campaign will most likely end with them confronting a powerful Lich that has been screwing with them for atleast 8-9 levels so far. So far, I'm thinking of setting the Liches level at 24, however he won't have any access to Epic Level Spells (I hate Epic level spells), he'll just be one mean SOB.

However, I'm wondering if that's a little too powerful for 20th level PC's to handle. I do want to give them a chance for victory, but if they win the fight, they'll have to earn it. I also know that high level fights are terribly lopsided. If the PC's prepare well, I have no doubt that they could beat something well above their average party level.

Okay, so after all of that rambling, I guess my question is, what other High level (16-20+) experiences have people here had? How much is 'too much' of a challenge for a 19-20th level group?

Just some notes on my pc's:
Dwarven Rogue (average stats, rich as all hell)
Sun Elf Wizard (uber stats, no support spells, a boom wizard basically)
Gnome Druid (Boom Druid, although he is versatile)
Human Barbarian (average stats)
Human Cleric (NPC, average stats)

 

[ruleslawyer]

Check out Piratecat's and James McMurray's story hours for some guidance; high-level adventures are very complex, so you'll want to get an idea of the kinds of scenarios that can pop up.

Basically, my primary advice centers around genre style and pacing. However much you may equate high-level D&D gaming with "high fantasy," it doesn't actually share many elements of that genre. It's much more like superhero comics or Star Trek: The PCs have vast information-gathering and communication powers, they can travel anywhere in an instant, and given time, they can get around or over essentially any obstacle. Consequently, the pace of your adventures needs to be fast. Get used to describing the flow of events in short, pithy sound bites, and to moving the game beyond the leisurely flow of something like The Lord of the Rings and into a snapshot-by-snapshot pace more like The Authority. If the PCs are in the middle of an adventure, do NOT give them time to rest or do leisurely detective work. Keep the pace fast and furious.

As far as more concrete suggestions for gaming: Recognize that combat at these levels is incredibly lethal, more so than at any time except possibly 1st-2nd level. One failed save or a single critical hit can end a PC's life with appalling ease. Make sure your players know that, and either get comfortable with their throwing around true resurrections or create a hero point system of some sort that allows rerolling of saves or ad hoc bonuses.

A 24th-level lich; by that, you mean a 24th-level spellcaster with the lich template? Pretty powerful, but certainly within the realm of possibility for a 20th-level party to handle. The key here, though, is not to give the PCs a single target. If you do that, they'll just hammer on it until it's dead. Make sure the lich is surrounded by a host of servant creatures, either summoned, charmed, or simply loyal. (This is also a good chance to give party members who might be less than optimally effective against the BBEG, like the rogue, an opportunity to shine.) Keep in mind, also, that the lich can survive in a number of settings that are severely hostile to living beings: Airless, poisonous, or simply water-filled chambers are all options for the lich's lair.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

My advice: let the players USE their new powers. If they can teleport home and rest up between encounters, let them. Sure, make the encounters tougher, but they didn't slog through 15 levels of dungeons to walk!

High level combats tend to be fast and sudden. Be prepared.

 

[Trainz]

I'm running a 35th level solo game that we started at 13th level. I wanted my first epic game to be solo, because like you I was a bit uncertain.

Here's some of the stuff I learned along the way:

Be aware of your fighting PC's stats. That means when you prepare the adventure, know what their AC is and what their first attack total bonus is.

Know what your PC's can make saves against, but at the same time, don't make sure they save on a 2 or higher.

Third, don't pull your punches. High-level PC's have access to True Resurrect, so it doesn't matter if you kill a few. Just make sure that at least one can survive the fight.

Other than that, you just have to experience it to really get a grasp of it all. It is easier than one thinks (at least, in my experience).

 

[WizarDru]

However, I'm wondering if that's a little too powerful for 20th level PC's to handle. I do want to give them a chance for victory, but if they win the fight, they'll have to earn it. I also know that high level fights are terribly lopsided. If the PC's prepare well, I have no doubt that they could beat something well above their average party level.

Okay, so after all of that rambling, I guess my question is, what other High level (16-20+) experiences have people here had? How much is 'too much' of a challenge for a 19-20th level group?

Well, I suggest you read PC's story hour, Sepulchrave's story hour, and my story hour, for examples of high-level parties and how to challenge them. I've addressed this issue in other threads, and can bring you a link to a previous thread where I covered it much more extensively, if you want.

Cliff notes version: A CR 20 lich is not going to tax a group of 19th-20th level players unless they're unprepared for him and/or have had their resources already taxed. A full-powered party at this level will be quite powerful, and will easily be able to handle a CR 23+ encounter, if they're prepared or have enough resources to meet the challenge.

That Lich could be destroyed by a single failed save, for example. The wizard can use Imprisonment on the lich, and gain the party several buffing rounds and the opportunity to defend themselves, for example, and there's no save. Disintegrate could do it, or a variety of high-level spells. To make him a capstone encounter, you want to either have him allied with quite a few powerful mooks, or have him encountered in an entrenched environment, where he can really turn the situation to his advantage.

High-level PCs can do some amazing things, and you need to either consider all of their spells and equipment, and tailor the encounter against them...OR you design the encounter to be strong, and completely ignore the players abilities, and merely make it a challenging encounter for the appropriate CR, with appropriate modifiers.

Note, for example, that the Githyanki Lich Queen from 'Lich Queen's Beloved' in Dungeon #100 is a CR 26 encounter, not including facing her on her home ground, where she has prepared the environment to her liking. You'll see a similar approach in "Bastion of Broken Souls", where there are several CR 23 and CR 26 encounters for the PCs to face.

 

[Jolly Giant]

If your party is lvl 19-20, knows that they're up against a lich and has sufficient time to prepare, they'll very probably destroy him in the first round of combat. Seriously!

High-level characters can do just about anything. Information is the one and only guaranteed path to victory in high-level play. With sufficient knowledge and time to prepare, they can beat practically anyone and anything. (It's taken my quite some time to make my PCs realize this, but now, at ECLs around 29-30, I think they've finally got the idea! They've even started using divination spells for more than just identifying magic items... )

Since this lich has been plagueing your PCs for quite some time, I assume they have a pretty good idea of what they're up against and will use that information for all it's worth. What you need to keep in mind when planing the encounter is that the lich also knows what he's up against! He should be as well prepared for this encounter as your PCs.

I'm not saying he has to know exactly when and how they'll attack him, but he is prepared for them to attack in some way at some time. If he knows what's good for him, he will invest some time and resources in finding out as much as he can about them. He'll use whatever it takes; divinations, rumour-gathering minions or good, old-fashioned spies, to find out all he can about his enemies.

He'll probably be aware of any weaknesses they might have, and if so, he will have found ways to exploit those weaknesses. He'll also be aware of their favorite tactics, and he will have spent some time figuring out how best to defend himself against them. (My PCs have learnt the value of not telling anyone about their greatest exploits and most brilliant strategies the hard way! )

One thing any undead BBEG should have is the reverse of "Negative Energy Protection"-spell; i.e. a spell that protects them from positive energy. A lvl 20 paladin with a decent CHA can "Lay On Hands" a lvl 30 lich to pieces with a single touch-attack. No save, no SR...

One last piece of advice: If you want the encounter to last more than one round of combat, make sure the lich has plenty of minions for the PCs to hack their way through. The minions doesn't have to be all that though, they just need to be many!

A swarm of dire bats, a small army of sceletons, some low-level goblin rogues, elementals, minor fiends... They're not meant to be any real threath in themselves. They're just there to be in the way, giving the lich a couple of rounds to cast the most important buff-spells on himself. (Or even make good his escape, if he feels the need to.) Of course, if some of the PCs 1 round/level buffs expire while they're hacking their way past the minions, then that's just fine with the lich...

Ok, looong post... Hope at least some of it is useful!

 

[Norfleet]

The key to challenging a high level character is to DESTROY THE MAGIC ITEMS.

As one poster mentioned, characters all have access to stuff like True Resurrection: "You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I'll just come back and pick up all my stuff."

What does this teach us? DESTROY the STUFF! At high levels of play, for anyone who isn't a spellcaster, the magic items have likely taken over their character. Killing the character is now the equivalent of destroying a low-level fighter's sword: A mere annoyance that is easily fixed.

Just remember these words: "You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I'll just come back and pick up all my stuff."

 

[ruleslawyer]

That's just vindictive, Norfleet. The reason why true res exists at high levels is because combat is really deadly, and the PCs can't count on story values to save them. Destroying their stuff is a sure means to ensure that at least one player leaves the game table.

 

[the Jester]

I'd recommend Piratecat's story hour, Sepulchrave's story hours and my To War Against Felenga SH for a feel of high-level (edging into Epic-level) campaigns.

Two basic pieces of advice- no, let's make it three:

1. Pull no punches. After all, the pcs can true rez or true reincarnate, they can find a way around any obstacle, and they can overcome any adversary given a little preparation. Heck, the party in my campaign fought a CR 47 bad guy and beat him with the proper preparation (involving, of course, finding an artifact tailored to beat him, but hey, y'know... that's what high-level prep is.)

2. Make the pcs use their abilities. Instead of worrying about how you'll challenge them when they can scry-buff-port and how you can make a mystery when they can contact other plane, make a mystery with no clues where they must divine the answers. Make obstacles that require odd combos of high-level spells and powers to overcome. Make them spend some of those spell slots and PSPs outside of combat.

3. Plan ahead! From npc stats to plots, it's soo much easier to wing it at low levels that there just isn't a good way to compare. A 1st-level party can fight a party of four 1st-level warriors straight from the dm's head, but a 20th-level party cannot fight a group of 20th-level npcs without serious dm prep. Anything that's a challenge for high-level pcs has been alive long enough to know its abilities, strengths and weaknesses and how to apply them- or hide them.

Good luck, and don't let the game end a predetermined ending just because you're intimidated by ultra-high-level play; my campaign has reached as high as 21st level and it just keeps getting more fun.

And, of course, more lethal...

 

[Geoff Watson]

The lich is in serious trouble, especially if the PCs are prepared for him.

Mass Heal will do him over while keeping the PCs at full health.

He needs a bunch of bodyguards, and lots of preparation to stand a chance against a high level group.

Geoff.