Challenging Higher Level PC's
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Norfleet
First Post
What you are saying basically proves my case: What kind of twisted, bass-ackwards world is it when a person's *STUFF* is worth more than his life? Doesn't this somehow strike you as wrong, that you can kill a player's character 30 times, and he won't get upset about it, but heaven forbid you destroy his stuff? Doesn't this somehow strike you as antithetical to a character-driven game?ruleslawyer said:
I think that the players you're dealing with are just a bunch of babies. In *MY* day, it was an accepted fact that soldiers didn't walk off the battlefield with all of their original equipment intact: Stuff gets used, destroyed, and ripped from the cold dead hands of the opposition.
With true res comes the fact that even if you kill them, they just come back and pick up all their stuff. Clearly, the stuff has become the line of continuity, and if you expect the players to feel threatened, you have to threaten the stuff. 3E has introduced the oddly computer-gamey mechanic where the person's stuff, not the person, is what matters: It doesn't matter how many times he dies, as long as he can respawn and successfully perform a corpse run! For some reason, characters are no longer important, they're merely vehicles through which stuff is deployed. When you have a game where players will quit, not because their character was killed, but because he WASN'T killed, but lost his STUFF, something is WRONG.
Besides, high-level characters should be able to make their own stuff anyway.
RangerWickett
Legend
Last night, I went through two adventure storyarcs in one session. The party consists of:
Rantle, human Fighter 9/Rogue 3. NG
Whim, gnome Ranger 10/Rogue 1/Shadowdancer 1. CG
Fayne, elf Ranger 11/Barbarian 1. CG
Guthwulf, human Cleric 12. LE
Quill Kainen, human Wizard 12. N
Erdan, human custom monkish-expertish class 10/Rogue 2. NE
Last night, they were in the palace of an emperor, whom they had saved a few sessions earlier. Apparently not everyone likes them, and there was going to be a plot to lure them away while badguys took control of the emperor. I wanted to drop some clues, so one courier by unlucky chance happens to make a delivery while one of the PCs is nearby. There was a mage, who received a package from a shadowdancer on a balcony.
Quill has an NPC ally distract the mage while he casts dominate on him. The now-dominated mage answers all of his questions, but since the guy wasn't that high in the conspiracy, he doesn't have all the answers. Now, the Shadowdancer/Assassin who was delivering the package had a +26 Hide check. Rolled a 3. The wizard had a +12 Spot check, and rolled a 19. So he makes out this vague shape pointing a crossbow at the back of their witness, and we roll for initiative. Luck is again on the side of the heroes, and he wins initiative, casts a disintegrate, and drops the shadowdancer to -5 hit points.
Flash forward a few hours in-game, and the party has dominated the somewhat healed shadowdancer (in a locked room with several daylight spells), learned all of her contacts, and then tracked those down with scry spells. They learn the different ruses that were supposed to lure them away, and by the end of the day they've captured a handful of conspirators, driven off a handful more, and interrogated/tortured out secrets from their captives that lead them to a plot I wasn't expecting them to get to for a few more sessions.
Then, they travel to the kingdom of a . . . well, simply-put, a Hitler-esque Elvish emperor. They plan at first just to talk to him, and talk they do. They slowly begin to realize that behind his diplomatic exterior, this emperor is an ass-hole. They butt heads against some of his men who try to capture some innocents who want to escape the emperor, but the party manages to keep them from getting assassinated. Late in the evening, Rantle discusses with the Emperor how to negotiate peace between his people and the other Emperor they'd come from. Thing is, this Elvish emperor has his fingers in all sorts of dirty plots, and he and Rantle spar verbally for fifteen minutes, trying to get answers out of each other.
And, at the end of the discussion, Rantle up and attacks him. Now, thanks to another thread where people had helped me plan the emperor's defenses, Rantle gets taken down pretty quickly, but . . . well, I hadn't expected them to get to the 'Emperor Shaaladel is pissed at them and watns to kill them' for another few sessions. A lot of buildup I'd planned I have to work in some other way now, and though it was cool, the fact that the can get information so easily is truly messing with my plans.
I like it, though.
Rantle, human Fighter 9/Rogue 3. NG
Whim, gnome Ranger 10/Rogue 1/Shadowdancer 1. CG
Fayne, elf Ranger 11/Barbarian 1. CG
Guthwulf, human Cleric 12. LE
Quill Kainen, human Wizard 12. N
Erdan, human custom monkish-expertish class 10/Rogue 2. NE
Last night, they were in the palace of an emperor, whom they had saved a few sessions earlier. Apparently not everyone likes them, and there was going to be a plot to lure them away while badguys took control of the emperor. I wanted to drop some clues, so one courier by unlucky chance happens to make a delivery while one of the PCs is nearby. There was a mage, who received a package from a shadowdancer on a balcony.
Quill has an NPC ally distract the mage while he casts dominate on him. The now-dominated mage answers all of his questions, but since the guy wasn't that high in the conspiracy, he doesn't have all the answers. Now, the Shadowdancer/Assassin who was delivering the package had a +26 Hide check. Rolled a 3. The wizard had a +12 Spot check, and rolled a 19. So he makes out this vague shape pointing a crossbow at the back of their witness, and we roll for initiative. Luck is again on the side of the heroes, and he wins initiative, casts a disintegrate, and drops the shadowdancer to -5 hit points.
Flash forward a few hours in-game, and the party has dominated the somewhat healed shadowdancer (in a locked room with several daylight spells), learned all of her contacts, and then tracked those down with scry spells. They learn the different ruses that were supposed to lure them away, and by the end of the day they've captured a handful of conspirators, driven off a handful more, and interrogated/tortured out secrets from their captives that lead them to a plot I wasn't expecting them to get to for a few more sessions.
Then, they travel to the kingdom of a . . . well, simply-put, a Hitler-esque Elvish emperor. They plan at first just to talk to him, and talk they do. They slowly begin to realize that behind his diplomatic exterior, this emperor is an ass-hole. They butt heads against some of his men who try to capture some innocents who want to escape the emperor, but the party manages to keep them from getting assassinated. Late in the evening, Rantle discusses with the Emperor how to negotiate peace between his people and the other Emperor they'd come from. Thing is, this Elvish emperor has his fingers in all sorts of dirty plots, and he and Rantle spar verbally for fifteen minutes, trying to get answers out of each other.
And, at the end of the discussion, Rantle up and attacks him. Now, thanks to another thread where people had helped me plan the emperor's defenses, Rantle gets taken down pretty quickly, but . . . well, I hadn't expected them to get to the 'Emperor Shaaladel is pissed at them and watns to kill them' for another few sessions. A lot of buildup I'd planned I have to work in some other way now, and though it was cool, the fact that the can get information so easily is truly messing with my plans.
I like it, though.
RangerWickett
Legend
WarRabbit said:I know it's too late now, but when disintegrate reduces the targets hit points to 0 or below, all that is left is a pile of dust....remembering that would have saved your plot
Well, that plot wasn't that vital. Anyway, this is my senior year of college, so the more my players do to speed along the narrative, the better, I suppose. Plus, outright dusting her would've been too easy. Instead, the party got to loot her and discover.
* One glove of Dexterity, nonfunctional (since its partner is missing)
* Half a cloak of elvenkind, which grants a +3 bonust to hide checks
* Heavily damaged +2 mithril chain shirt, nonfunctional
* The bottom piece of a bag of holding, now destroyed and nonfunctional
If there's one thing Whitey likes, it's challenging the PCs.
Challenging them until they collapse in piles of gory ruin.
To facilitate this, there's basically two approaches to take with even 'mid' level characters.
1 - Nullify their ability to do stuff. Rods of cancellation, level or ability drain, disjunction, and on and on. The party described here looks well stocked between casters and brawlers (just an NPC cleric, though) so this would require a diversifed approach. They won't much like this - but when have they ever liked what the hostiles have tried to do to them?
2 - Require they use all their stuff. By this level, there will likely be one or more hostile organizations looking to spoil their day. Every day. Have them face (picking some random examples here) rampaging troll/giantish hordes to the south, diabolical court intrigues in the west, inexplicable geologic disasters to the north, and superelite hit squads from the east. All for them to deal with personally - people expect that of their heroes. All in one busy day.
Viewing this more abstractly, instead of placing pressure on spell allotments or riches or even HP, you could aim for time. Maybe the trolls don't cause any significant wounds to the PCs, but they use up daily slots, spread the party thin and disrupt their synergy, and cause collateral damage that the PCs are expected to remedy. Don't forget that while they're going toe to really big toes with the giant chieftan, someone up north is now under an avalanche wondering where the heroes are. They'll need to make some tough choices, ones with consequences - great power comes with great responsibility, and great expectations.
No foolin'. The whole CR system starts to crumble even worse as levels go higher. The amount of nasty coming in at one target far outstrips what that target can return. By level 15, Whitey would say add +3 to the level/CR of any hostile you intend for the whole party to mob, and +5 if the party has prepped with suitable gear/spells and can fight on their terms.
Try the following brute squad, and see how the PCs fare.
Nalfeshnee [MM1] bumped to 15HD and given Improved Sunder.
A Wiz13 (Illus) to baffle the boomer. Creates the illusion that all sorts of horrors are on the loose.
Invisibile StalkerRog 5. Classic RB combination.
Roper. Haven't used one in a while, and it'd be a good guardian type for your undead's crypts. It also has good synergy with the hostiles mentioned above.
This encounter would give a good estimation of their abilities. If it works, Whitey will even help you write letters to the party's next of kin.
Challenging them until they collapse in piles of gory ruin.
To facilitate this, there's basically two approaches to take with even 'mid' level characters.
1 - Nullify their ability to do stuff. Rods of cancellation, level or ability drain, disjunction, and on and on. The party described here looks well stocked between casters and brawlers (just an NPC cleric, though) so this would require a diversifed approach. They won't much like this - but when have they ever liked what the hostiles have tried to do to them?
2 - Require they use all their stuff. By this level, there will likely be one or more hostile organizations looking to spoil their day. Every day. Have them face (picking some random examples here) rampaging troll/giantish hordes to the south, diabolical court intrigues in the west, inexplicable geologic disasters to the north, and superelite hit squads from the east. All for them to deal with personally - people expect that of their heroes. All in one busy day.
Viewing this more abstractly, instead of placing pressure on spell allotments or riches or even HP, you could aim for time. Maybe the trolls don't cause any significant wounds to the PCs, but they use up daily slots, spread the party thin and disrupt their synergy, and cause collateral damage that the PCs are expected to remedy. Don't forget that while they're going toe to really big toes with the giant chieftan, someone up north is now under an avalanche wondering where the heroes are. They'll need to make some tough choices, ones with consequences - great power comes with great responsibility, and great expectations.
No foolin'. The whole CR system starts to crumble even worse as levels go higher. The amount of nasty coming in at one target far outstrips what that target can return. By level 15, Whitey would say add +3 to the level/CR of any hostile you intend for the whole party to mob, and +5 if the party has prepped with suitable gear/spells and can fight on their terms.
Try the following brute squad, and see how the PCs fare.
Nalfeshnee [MM1] bumped to 15HD and given Improved Sunder.
A Wiz13 (Illus) to baffle the boomer. Creates the illusion that all sorts of horrors are on the loose.
Invisibile StalkerRog 5. Classic RB combination.
Roper. Haven't used one in a while, and it'd be a good guardian type for your undead's crypts. It also has good synergy with the hostiles mentioned above.
This encounter would give a good estimation of their abilities. If it works, Whitey will even help you write letters to the party's next of kin.
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