Challenging my high-lvl group (NPCs and monsters; my players shouldn't read this!)

[Kaodi]

What?

You're so wrong, Spatzimaus! You're only the second 1300th post! hehehe...

 

[Piratecat]

This is true!

I will probably end up closing this thread and starting a new one. Just so you know, I have most of the worm issues and mythology worked out at this point, and the discussion here certainly helped. I still have some major inconsistencies about timing and what God did what when, but I'm hoping that my players write that off to the haziness of prehistory. Shhh, no one call me on it!

My questions right now are two interesting ones:

1. If Velendo holds what is effectively a giant conference with the most powerful people in thr world, all os he can discuss the worms, what would you do to make those game be fun and not drudgery?

2. How might the githyanki losing an artifact-level silver sword (to Galthia, a githzerai), a sword that is more important for its mythic and historical status than its raw power, bring down the reign of the githyanki lich-queen?

Thanks!

 

[thatdarncat]

2. How might the githyanki losing an artifact-level silver sword (to Galthia, a githzerai), a sword that is more important for its mythic and historical status than its raw power, bring down the reign of the githyanki lich-queen?

Consider it in terms of real world royalty. Without their "symbols of office" ie crown jewels, what do they have to show their authority?

 

[Spatzimaus]

1. If Velendo holds what is effectively a giant conference with the most powerful people in thr world, all os he can discuss the worms, what would you do to make those game be fun and not drudgery?

While the Defenders are probably the only ones alive who've seen an actual worm, most of them probably wouldn't be involved in that sort of discussion. Some are implementers of plans, not formulators; some do tactics, not strategy; some use swords, while magic will be the key here. So some (like Galthia) wouldn't be involved. The exceptions would probably be Velendo and Agar, and Stone Bear would be personally involved due to his time with Elder.

The obvious answer is to let the party members play other key NPCs. Not Ioun, but heads of some of the other power blocs, especially those that don't bring any information to the table. But, they'll have political power, and the will to use it to further their own private agendas. All that power in one place would have natural consequences; some of these groups would hate each other (or be in actual declared wars), and while they might recognize the need to defeat the worms, that doesn't mean they'll put aside their differences; they might think that the group would have a BETTER chance if the "disruptive influence" was removed. Some would just use this meeting as an excuse to force other negotiations (say, if Ioun refused to participate unless Corsai joined his empire once and for all) or demand reparations for past offenses. To top it all off, there's probably someone out there who'd want to take this opportunity to wipe out all of those people at once (say, someone who worships the worms?)

(This was based on a really fun adventure I played in a long time ago. In a human kingdom, the prince was about to marry an elven princess from the neighboring empire; some people were for it, others against. We were all ~15th level, and each character was one of the key figures in the region (head of the assassin's guild, king's advisor, king's younger brother, demon, a few mercenary adventurers, and so on). For a few weeks, we plotted, negotiated, bribed, attempted assassinations, etc., all leading up to a major civil war. It was great as a short-term adventure; the DM just sat back and helped determine if each players' plans would work.)

The big questions:
> What do you want them to accomplish at this meeting? Do they know enough about the worms' plan to be able to actually strategize? Do you want it to remain purely about the worms, or will other political matters end up being resolved at this time?
> Do you already know of a way to defeat the worms? If so, are you trying to lead them towards that, or is it something they'll need to figure out themselves?
> Which are the most powerful gods in your pantheon? If it's by age, I'd assume Aedrae and Trea, but I've never seen their churches mentioned in the story hour. Presumably, any powerful churches would send representatives; it wouldn't all fall on Calphas, Galanna, and Aeos to handle.

If you decided that it'd take the Gods themselves to capture the worms, you could even combine all of these suggestions; give each of the players an actual god to work with, and play out the actual battle using all the deity rules. After all, it seems sort of ridiculous that a group of mortals will somehow beat an enemy the gods had a hard time with, AND it's definitely a situation that'd motivate the gods to take direct action. Seems like a good end-of-campaign tangent to go off on.

2. How might the githyanki losing an artifact-level silver sword (to Galthia, a githzerai), a sword that is more important for its mythic and historical status than its raw power, bring down the reign of the githyanki lich-queen?

Well, how he got it might make a difference, but the short version in my mind is that it'd trigger a "final war" scenario; that is, it's the one thing so unacceptable that the githyanki would throw everything into the war against the githzerai, before they're really ready for it. That might give the natural edge to the githzerai, once the first battles are past, and the end result of that might be the lich-queen losing once and for all. But, this assumes he JUST acquired it; if he's had it for a while now, that logic probably wouldn't work.
(Actually, this is kinda similar to the suggestion we had made for Agar's wedding; reacquiring the sword would force the Big Bad to take unacceptable risks to get it back, which could end up making things worse as the players foil the plots.)

Another possibility is pretty cliche'd: by destroying the artifact, Galthia would weaken its maker. (Just played the ToEE video game) The plus side here is that a sword doesn't really seem like something Galthia would use, so it's not like it's doing him much good as is. What'd be really funny is if you could tie this into Mechanus' fate. As in, using an artifact of Chaos to force the lich-queen to travel to a plane of Law, where she'd be much weaker... nah, too close to how the Ivory King was beaten. But the Modrons have to be involved somehow.

 

[Sandain]

1. If Velendo holds what is effectively a giant conference with the most powerful people in thr world, all os he can discuss the worms, what would you do to make those game be fun and not drudgery?


Well, all players could be involved. The Elder brain may request galthia is his representative, Paladins would represent thier god and chruch, The casters and psions would be there as themselves.

Also, you could make it really fun and schedule a telephone conference with your retired players - the mages and druids who moved to the west coast perhaps?

A conferance like this should be enjoyable for some resons, while being serious about the threat.

 

[Piratecat]

In terms of the conference, I think Spatz has the right of it. This should be a chance for Velendo to shine. I'll probably give personalities of NPCs from every church to all the players, and let them abuse poor Sagiro while he tries to swing them to his cause.

You know, I was just thinking what a pain it'd be to write up the personalities, then I realized I was being a doof. You folks wanna help? Please?

Spatz, I can't answer your questions without big honking spoilers. The short answer (since I'm headed to bed) is that Trea plays a huge role in the current story arc, and I've still done virtually nothing with Aedrae; she's a blank canvass to draw on.

Regarding the sword, I'm pondering the role of myth in kingbuilding. I'm also overthinking this WAY too much. I think I may have the PCs journey to Hell and free the essence of the original Gith herself. That would topple Vlaakith almost certainly, even if I have to strain credulity a bit to make it happen, and it gets them where I want them for another plot hook.

It's worth thinking about.

 

[Sandain]

hrm didn't the Modron march tie in with the Dead Gods module? what if the dead god was Gith (rank 0 diety) instead of Orcus? The players couldve stopped a lot of grief if the'd acted years ago.

Using old enemies and allies from Eversink may be fun? and of course our favourite undead sorceror should make an appearance...he is a valid power in the world after all, same as the Elder brain is.

 

[Spatzimaus]

This should be a chance for Velendo to shine. I'll probably give personalities of NPCs from every church to all the players, and let them abuse poor Sagiro while he tries to swing them to his cause.

Why limit it to only religious types? There must be some others that would be powerful enough to get involved (Ioun, for instance). Also, since you haven't given details, I'm not sure why he'd even NEED to convince anyone. If it's pretty self-evident that Worms Are Bad, something the gods themselves agree with, then it only remains to prove that the worms still exist and have plans, both of which became obvious when Elder went after Imbindarla's job.

You know, I was just thinking what a pain it'd be to write up the personalities, then I realized I was being a doof. You folks wanna help? Please?

Sounds like fun, although it'd help if you already had a rough idea of which NPCs/factions are involved.

Spatz, I can't answer your questions without big honking spoilers.

I know. But unfortunately, without those sorts of spoilers, it's hard to give coherent suggestions, especially since something like a year has passed since regular game sessions went into the story hour, and the mythology is one area where the players have a HUGE advantage over us storyhour readers. For instance, without knowing exactly how much power Malachite and Mara now have in the Aeosian church, it's hard to know whether they'd be selected to speak for the entire church at an event like this, or whether Aeos' representatives would even be invited.

The short answer (since I'm headed to bed) is that Trea plays a huge role in the current story arc, and I've still done virtually nothing with Aedrae; she's a blank canvass to draw on.

Okay, that does give something to work with, depending on exactly how many of our earlier suggestions you decided to use (especially the stuff about Abbath's fate). But I think we still need more info on the pantheon; maybe you've fleshed this all out in your own notes and just never fit it into the narrative, or maybe this is the point in the campaign where this stuff finally matters enough to resolve. Breaking it down into a few questions:

1> Like I mentioned before, is the relative power of gods based solely on the number of followers (which'd put Aeos pretty high, I'd think) or is it more heirarchical (with Teliez remaining at the bottom tier due to lack of seniority and demigod status)? I.e., would Aedrae's church be inherently powerful just because of who she is? Or are there only a small number of large "churches" (like Aeos has), with most of the other gods just acting as patrons for specific groups (like Galanna seems to be)?

2> Where do the classical non-human deities (like Moradin, Corellon, and Mog) fit into all of this? You've established that some non-humans worship the main Spiran pantheon (like certain elves worshipping Galanna, or gnomes for Orthyss), but you've also mentioned the traditional race-related deities.
If Abbath, Aedrae, and Trea showed up right after the worms killed off everyone and were responsible for their binding, when did the others show up? Presumably they'd be just as motivated to stop their followers from being destroyed in a world-ending cataclysm, so that gives you a LOT of gods to get involved.

3> Which of the gods have your current players personally fleshed out over the years? Which were done by ex-players (in which case they'd be the obvious people to ask for NPC suggestions)? Which haven't really been touched at all?

4> You've more or less established that the pantheon is global, with ones like Calphas worshipped in different aspects in different areas. But is it possible that some god that's practically ignored in the players' homelands could be one of the most powerful on some other continent? This'd help get around any issues from #1, as well as adding potential for new cultures. For instance, say that since Aedrae is one of the most powerful goddesses, she should be represented; but, in Gaunt and the surrounding regions she's only worshipped by a few oracles (she IS the goddess of Fate), while in some faraway land the Aedraean Church controls a theocracy (bringing an entirely new meaning to "waychooser"), and so they'd be the obvious representatives.

Basically, I think the problem is that there are just too many gods for them all to be involved; narrowing the discussion down to the half-dozen most powerful might be a start. Ironically, this'd probably rule out Calphas, almost definitely rule out Galanna, which gives a nice starting point to the "why should we listen to this guy?" arguments. Also, if the Illithid gods have a lot of power, wouldn't they feel they should be represented at these sorts of world-changing events? Or would they just sit back and hope their opponent gods are weakened by the effort of trapping/killing the worms again?

 

[Piratecat]

Sandain, I'm ahead of you! I already know who killed Primus and took his place, and why. It ties in with the ongoing plot fairly nicely, explains why the modrons were marching, and explains why all the modrons suddenly dropped dead. (Ha! Take THAT, plot avoiding PCs!) I think I'm going to reveal this information in aan upcoming game. I'm actually at the stage where if I'm going to bring the campaign to a close, I nned to resolve some plot lines. It kills me to do so, but it'll be fun.

Spatz, you have some great points. I'm not above revealing spoilers, far from it; I just couldn't type it all last night.

I have some stuff I still need to do today and it'll take me an hour to type, so I'll post again later.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Regarding the sword, I'm pondering the role of myth in kingbuilding. I'm also overthinking this WAY too much.

The thing that piques my interest about the sword is: Why this sword? Surely others were carrying weapons. Possibly even magical/psionic ones. So what made this ordinary, unremarkable sword become a focal point?