Challenging PCs in a world that make sense?

[Turanil]

I am still creating my campaign setting, and I plan to run the campaign up to 20th level. Beyond 11th level however, it's going to become tough for me to run. In fact I have some metaphysical problems when challenging PCs: I want it to make sense. What do I mean?

Well, recently I did read a Dungeon Magazine scenario; it was for 16th level PCs. I was really interested in it but what: it was just a village being taken over by brigands, except that the "brigand leader" was a balor, the brigands were 9th level fighter/blademasters, plus a sprinkle of 16th level wizards, lieutnants, iron golems, and whatnot. Mmmmh... So is this a typical high level adventure? The same plot as a low-level one but with uber-powerful critters that for some reason content themselves with having taken over a small village of farmers... :\

I understand why the DMG provides a vast system of Challenge Ratings to give PCs challenging opponents they can nonetheless defeat each adventure... But I am not satisfied with that. At 3rd level you go across the forest and meet with simple orcs, but going back to it later when you are 10th level you meet with trolls. Same for dungeons: the first tomb you plundered was inhabited by zombies plus a ghoul, but levels later the same tomb is populated by wraiths and liches. IMO, there is few sense of PCs becoming powerful heroes when each level you just find an adversary matching your skills, so you can defeat it with some pain and efforts. Then, they appear out of very simple plots: at 3rd level the village is taken over by bandits, and at 16th level by a bunch of creatures out of the Abyss. That is, nothing changes except the firepower that matches that of the PCs.

I want something more!!!

1) I want that PCs get a sense of becoming powerful and great heroes as they gain levels.
I remember this: long ago I did play a 1e UA Cavalier. At 3rd level with 15s in stats, mundane equipment, and his party of fellow 3rd level PCs we had a really hard time going across a forest we knew it being dangerous. We were glad to escape alive and would not have gone back into it. However, later my 10th level cavalier with 18s in stats, and magical equipment had to go back across the forest. Nobody dared to challenge the seemingly uber powerful champion! The forest was the same, but my character was now extremely powerful, it was a pleasure to ride in without being bothered. It would have been less funny to hve to fight again, this time with trolls instead of orcs, next time with dragons instead of trolls.

2) I want the players adapt to the world, not the CR of the world improve as they get more levels. I have seen too many times players thinking they could go anywhere they want, "cause monster would be such as they could defeat them at their level". When not, they looked outraged...
Now, in this next campaign of mine, dungeons are not reducing their forces to adapt to low level PCs who come by. Instead, there is Gather Information checks, divination spells, and a new Astrology skill to determine if the PCs are wise or not to go into a place they have heard of. Well, players will have to be educated first, so I won't kill them outright the first times, but they may probably end as slaves and humiliated... On the other hand, they could come back later (after a number of additional levels) and take revenge to former slavers or whatnot, and those would not be able to resist.

3) I don't want the PCs just learn about the Tarrasque rampaging the campaign world as they reach the 18th level. If a Tarrasque has been rampaging the campaign world, they have heard of it long before, have seen some of its disasters long before, etc., and the world has somewhat adapted to it long before the PCs came by the Tarrasque just per chance, to slay it, yet being challenged. I will have to describe a coherent world, where high CR monstrosities don't just pop-up where the PCs go to challenge them.
Or maybe I just will? I choose to create a Elric like world to have an explanation for weird events and monsters. It occured to me that PCs in reaching higher level would become agents of the gods (of Law). As such, it would be clear that the gods of chaos have to throw something to stop them, which could end being a Tarrasque drawn from an improbable Limbo. But well, this trick cannot be abused.


ANYWAY. Has any of you suggestions, comments, etc., to run high level adventures that make sense from a story development perspective?

Thanks.

 

[Darklone]

Know what you mean. My PCs are currently breaking the speed limit of level 11 and soon a "world that makes sense" will not challenge them anymore. Will post more later.

 

[kolikeos]

when they're done saving this world they should move to the next.
go to some other plane and save a more powerful people from more powerful threats that would not normaly take over lowly villages but will gladly take over a city of powerful outsiders.
even the powerful need rescuing at times and there is always someone powerfuler to the rescue.
(total kish)

 

[Sado]

I think there just needs to be less of a power disparity between low-level and high-level (PC's and monsters/bad guys). So the orcs that were a challenge at 2nd level are still something of a threat at 12th, and that lich you dare not face before level 12 you could actually have a chance against at 2nd level. I know d&d is fantasy and the enemies are more...fantastic than in real life. But think about the real world, a guy who maybe never got into more than a couple of fights in school, while at a disadvantage, could still luck out against a trained soldier (like those kids in Red Dawn). Or a special forces expert could still get wasted by a lucky enemy grunt.

Am I way off here? Maybe, it's late and I'm bored trying to keep myself awake at work.

 

[kolikeos]

I think there just needs to be less of a power disparity between low-level and high-level (PC's and monsters/bad guys). So the orcs that were a challenge at 2nd level are still something of a threat at 12th, and that lich you dare not face before level 12 you could actually have a chance against at 2nd level. I know d&d is fantasy and the enemies are more...fantastic than in real life. But think about the real world, a guy who maybe never got into more than a couple of fights in school, while at a disadvantage, could still luck out against a trained soldier (like those kids in Red Dawn). Or a special forces expert could still get wasted by a lucky enemy grunt.

that might happen but it is very unlikely, as it is in D&D, there is a chance that a 4th level loser will win over a 8th level (loser too?) but that chance is very low, and a 2nd level Loozer has almost no chance of succes against a 12th level one, but the chance still exists as small as it is.

 

[Turanil]

when they're done saving this world they should move to the next.
go to some other plane and save a more powerful people from more powerful threats that would not normaly take over lowly villages but will gladly take over a city of powerful outsiders.
even the powerful need rescuing at times and there is always someone powerfuler to the rescue.
(total kish)

I already plan for parallel dimensions, which are a staple of Moorcockian worlds. For this I plan on buying Beyond Countless Doorways that seems so much Moorcockian in spirit... Anyway, saving a city of outsiders teken over by demons, is not so much different that saving a village taken over by brigands. That is, unless I find a really good explanation. And I hope this thread will give me some. SO, reading your suggestion about saving a city of outsiders, but wanting fluff that make sense, I could invent:

Well, well, lets see that... Mmmmh.... SO, at 3rd level they find a village taken over by brigands, but there is also a cult of chaos involved, and the villagers are being debased, perverted, etc., by this cult. Adventurers happen to come by and solve the problem, freeing the village. Okay. Thereafter, the adventures continue and are different. However, the PCs will learn at times, news and rumors of other villages which have suffered the same fate as the one they freed when they were 3rd level. Then, later on, they happen into a city, and eventually uncover a like plot, but far more subtle this time, so the adventure at least appears different, but eventually plot is the same. NOW the conclusion: this is an overall massive campaign of corruption on the world. As Chaos is behind it, this grand design of invasion is based on some magical blueprint. Fortunately the PCs become aware of it. So to destroy the "blueprint", they eventually travel to another dimension where a city of peaceful outsiders has been taken over by a group of Balor / archnecromancers / 10thlvl-blademasters / and whatnot. This can be the same adventure as the Dungeon Magazine slightly adapted, yet now it makes sense.

In fact, to make sense it appears that several plot lines need to be prepared in advance. So things do not seem to pop-up out of nowhere...

 

[kolikeos]

just like i said, total kish

 

[random user]

I've had the same concern, and believe it or not, it was Everquest that helped me out to some extent.

I started my players in what one would call a "newbie zone." The region they were in was well off, with patrols keeping the countryside safe, roads in good conditions, and a largely benevolent government.

Here they learned the ropes, gained a few levels, and realized that this zone, while largely safe, also provided little treasure. Having gotten over the excitement of swinging a sword for the first time, they ventured forth.

They've heard of a land that just sounds evil. They're too scared to go there, but they'll probably make it there eventually. They've also heard of a (different) land where dragons, giants, and other magical creatures roam. They are smart enough to stay away from that. Right now, they've discovered a land that is more of a "mid-level" zone... not a lot of law, you need to watch your back, etc. Kind of like the wild west of the US. Here they've found things that still challenge them.

So I basically did it by segregating the areas. Some areas have a lot of authority which takes care of any big problems that arise. Other areas serve as places where high level creatures or people may choose to congregate.

I'm also not afraid to tell them something like, "You encounter some dire boars during the night. You kill them without any problems and the rest of the night passes peacefully." After all, it's also unrealistic if every encounter is a challenge for them.

On the flip side, they can also encounter things they can't handle yet. But they are smart enough (usually) to find clues either from NPC's, lore, etc to avoid fights in those encounters (or to avoid those encounters entirely).

Eventually they will outgrow this midlevel area and move on to another area. If/when they go back to these easier areas, they'll be able to laugh at the things that used to challenge them.

Just my 2cp.

 

[PallidPatience]

Just don't force your players to become Agents of Law (over Chaos); the Bards, Sorcerers, and Barbarians won't stand for it!

 

[Spell]

Has any of you suggestions, comments, etc., to run high level adventures that make sense from a story development perspective?

My advices:
1) Tell the players that the game world won't be the average d&d game world, as per DMG. Explain them what is your aim, and try to convince them that you're working for the best of everybody's game interest. If you receive green light by them, everything is 10 times easier.

2) Cut down the number magical items. Each magical item should be unique and special, even a crappy +1 sword. Forget what the DMG says about magical items commerce (!), and the minimum amount of magic per character level.

3) Create mundane opponents. Use them a lot more than those magical critters! 5th level fighter kobolds are better than bigger and more magical monsters, for the type of campaign you have in mind.

4) Plan in advance. Who is the opponent of the PC, when they reach 11th+ levels? a tarrasque? a lich? Bonzo, the lizard god? Make your choice and start scattering clues, story plots and advices at the players. It will make the encounters and the story more believable, and the players happy (because they will think they have chosen their destiny...). It also gives you more time to create adventures, and to change them if you feel that your players will be uninterested ("mmmmh... maybe Bonzo is not the right choice, after all...")

5) If the players make something stupid, stick to the result of the dices. You have decided that dungeon X is populated by demons? You warned the players in every possible way? They went there, thinking that "If the DM mentions this place, then we can break the place"? It's their business, and they will pay the consequences.

6) If you can, try to adopt some optional rules that make the combat a little more realistic. This especially helps to wipe out the "I have enough hit points and AC bonuses to ignore that sily orc" syndrome. If you just have the core books, you can find something on the internet, too.

7) live happy.