Challenging PCs in a world that make sense?

[Turanil]

Just don't force your players to become Agents of Law (over Chaos); the Bards, Sorcerers, and Barbarians won't stand for it!

It's a Grim Tales (link to review in my sig) campaign. As such no bard, no sorcerer, no D&D classes in fact. Magic is for anyone who dare cast a spell, but it comes at a price. Barbarians need not have an allegiance to Chaos, which has nothing to do with being a wild, independant person (i.e.: chaotic). In this game, no D&D alignments, but d20 modern-like allegiances (which, by the way, permit characters to have what amounts to a D&D alignment, or characters without any alignment). Ah okay, I still authorize players to play Barbarian, Fighter, or Rogue if they prefer that to Grim Tales classes.

"mmmmh... maybe Bonzo is not the right choice, after all..."

Well, it will be the choice anyway I bought Serpent Kingdom just for that!

 

[Henry]

One thing to remember is that at 8 levels below the party's level, encounters are completely unchallenging. Use this as story color when running the larger adventures. "You encounter a party of Trolls. Having seen you, they apologize profusely, wish you a good day, and prostrate themselves as they slink away, hoping they'll live to see the next day." Or describe the effortless encounter as nonchalantly as you describe the sun coming up.

For actual high-level challenges, the secret is to introduce threats that can really only be stopped by powers the PC's have at that level.

---Three synchronous doomsday clocks who've just reached zero hour, and you have to disarm them simultaneously? That's a job for the guys who can teleport (and alter time slightly, if need be).

---Is there an invading ettin / ogre mage army, and spies have managed to slip a mass disease into PC allies' food supply? Time for the clerics to break out those mass heals, while the fighters and wizards have to come up with a plan to singlehandedly hold off the forces long enough.

---Is the only hope of the kingdom to restore a certain species of fauna after civilization has killed the last one off? Time for a Wish, or at least a Polymorph any object...

---Perhaps there are two nations, Orc and Human, in conflict, and it takes a master negotiatior to resolve the differences. Maybe his comerades can restructure the Orcs' farming and geography to foster good will...

My suggestion is to look at the higher level powers of the PC party and figure out "Hmm, what kinds of problems would these solve?" Sometimes, the ONLY thing a power is good for is kicking butt (Power word, kill, for instance, or the barbarian's fatigueless rage), but there are plenty of other powers that can save the day in many ways.

 

[Piratecat]

It's worth remembering that "totally unchallenging" doesn't mean "not fun." I've had great success with running those same low-lvl bandits for my high-lvl PCs. . . but it turns out that one or more of the bandits had high political connections, and in defeating the bandits the PCs have kicked over a hornet's nest of scandal and intrigue.

That's my idea of a fun high-lvl game: realistic low-power encounters that realistically catch the attention of more powerful foes.

 

[fuindordm]

High-level adventures

I find that Raymod Feist's novels do a good job of segregating the kinds of challenges faced by high-level and low-level characters. In the Serpentwar
Saga, some of the challenges completed by the epic-level party include:

* locating a person or gathering information in alien/hostile environments
* getting close enough to the Big Bad guy to figure out what kind of Power is
behind the war, and escaping alive
* starting a movement to ressurect a dead god
* fighting an avatar of a powerful evil god
* returning a demigod to the mortal level
* unmaking a powerful artifact
* journeying to the beginning of time to solve an ancient enigma
* generally figuring out what the hell is going on in the cosmic sense, and
what can be done to stop it.

On the other hand, some of the more realistic characters face challenges like:
* escaping (or failing to escape) a manhunt
* masquerading as a mercenary company in hostile territory
* starting a successful business/nation
* protecting their business/nation from hostile takeovers
* preventing an assassination.

I think there are two key points to high-level play:
1) Characters with great power grow more constrained by their responsibilities.
If they have somehow managed not to acquire any, they should be under great
pressure to choose a side or affiliation. No one likes a loose cannon.

2) Interesting adventures for high-level characters should *require* the use of
their highest-level abilities to get anywhere at all. If the party is capable of
plane shifting, this shouldn't just be a convenient escape route--they should
start to become involved in the struggles between higher powers and need planar
travel to accomplish their goals.

--Ben

 

[MerakSpielman]

I've always thought that, in a "realistic" D&D world, the real trick would be surviving to the higher levels.

After all, if it's realistic, all those big dragons, gray renders, and armies of trolls and giants have no reason to avoid the soft targets... like puny little first level PCs.

The best thing for you to do, I think, is increase the scope of the party's quests. From your "town full of brigands" scenario, perhaps the heroes arrive at the town, only to find out that it's not brigands after all, it's a covert arm of the army of the Necromancer King, sent forward in time right before his defeat 10,000 years ago. They are securing the site of his demise and preparing a ritual to resurrect him.

Perhaps the Good Kingdom is under siege from three simultanious advancing armies. The PCs need to locate the magical item that is allowing the enemy generals to so precicely coordinate their army's movements. Is it something as mundane as having cleric lackies cast Sending, or something more sinister and elaborate? Or are there multiple communication channels? Go to it, PCs, solve the mystery and accomplish the quest! Or for more heartless PCs, their quest could be to infiltrate the enemy camps, locate the generals, and kill them. But they have some magic rings that share their HPs, so all three generals need to be assassinated simultaniously. That's a fun quandry for a party!

Using more frequent and bigger monsters is only one way to challange a high-level party, and it's difficult to have the PCs constantly running into such critters without it seeming a bit silly. However, it can be done, if the quests given the players involve them actively seeking out the few, rare locations of such critters across the world. So they can just bypass the hordes of goblin brigands and leech-infested marshes and teleport right into the Long Lost Temple of Fire Giant Barbarian Wizards.

 

[Berandor]

embrace the SHARK

 

[Prince of Happiness]

It's worth remembering that "totally unchallenging" doesn't mean "not fun." I've had great success with running those same low-lvl bandits for my high-lvl PCs. . . but it turns out that one or more of the bandits had high political connections, and in defeating the bandits the PCs have kicked over a hornet's nest of scandal and intrigue.

That's my idea of a fun high-lvl game: realistic low-power encounters that realistically catch the attention of more powerful foes.

I agree with that. That seems like it tends to happen to Conan as the closer he gets to becoming, and after becoming, the king of Aquilonia.

 

[CarlZog]

As you indicated, you need to create a coherent world. Create a world that continues about its business in the absence of the PCs. The dark rumors they hear at first level could develop into a full-scale evil invasion by the time they're at 15th level -- and they'll be prepared to take a commanding role in thwarting the threat. Or perhaps the threat is already imminent and the role they play in it changes as they progress.

It helps, I think, to draw from real world examples. Imagine the difference between the kind of challenges facing a rookie cop on the beat in a small town and the challenges facing an army general with 30 years experience.

One aspect of character development that seems to have fallen aside in 3e is the development of castles and strongholds. By the time your PCs are at 15th level, are they still running around by themselves killing miscellaneous bad guys and taking their stuff? Or have they used the loot from their early adventures to develop bases of operation? Becoming landed gentry does not mean a retirement from the adventuring life, but it may mean changes in the types of adventures they're having. Instead of saving the village from ogres, they're defending their own turf. It's up to you whether that means leading their troops into battle to take over a neighboring country, or sorting out threats from within (castle intrigue makes for great stuff). As Henry pointed out, there are plenty of opportunities in these larger scale adventures for high-level characters to use their skills.

On an entirely separate note, I'll say changing your rules system may also help. While I'm not excusing the lack of creativity that generates the type of adventures you're trying to avoid, I do think D&D's escalating hit point system and ramp up of skills and abilities helps breed the "same scene, bigger monsters" phenomenon.

zog

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

There's always a chance for a low-level encounter to turn lethal - that's DnD.

That kobold could hit with a crit, deal enough damage for a massive damage death, and the PC fail it... one dead PC of 12th level - from a 1st level kobold.

But it sounds as though you want to change that. That's fine (green lights as mentioned above). The world is fantasy. Realism doesn't enter the picture. Do you calculate the tidal effects + axial tilt + mean altitude above sea level to determine the probability of the season and day-to-day weather? Have you computed the effects of overall climate on the terrain, or do you have forests in the lee of coastal mountain ranges where you should have deserts?

You've got the right ideas, without having to worry about realism. What you're actually concerned with (from what I've read in your posts) is story flow... you want appropriate challenges for higher level characters without any real stretching of the 'willingness to believe' on the part of the players.

The best way to do that is over-arching story lines. I long ago moved from the traditional plot formats to a tree like flow chart outline of multiple plots interwoven. I typically plan out 2-4 major arches, with about 20 to 40 minor plots/sidetracks going on underneath them. I plan these out in chronological order of events, and tack times and locations to the events. Essentially, I plan as to what the opposition does if there are no heroes - all the way to the end. Then I launch my players into my world - which is exactly the same type of world, not anything like the DMG world, but one where dangers abound and are not artificially tied to your level. Whenever the actions of the heroes creates a new branch in my plotted outline, I take time to re-invent new actions/reactions of events a ways down every branch I can conceive them creating at that point. if I'm lucky, I can get them talking about the plot... not only does this give me clues as to what they are likely to do, it fuels my creativity and spurs me into more complex plots

As for magic items, you can take the advice above - it's good, as far as it goes. My worlds typically take this to the next level beyond that. Magic abounds, and even a first level character can find a powerful magic item. But all magic radiates it's presence, and the more powerful the item, the stronger the presence. Likewise, the stronger the magic user, the more the user notices these auras. So a first level party with an artifact will often find themselves targeted by the very powerful, some good and some bad.

I think you've got the right ideas about your world. It'll just take practice to get it down right. Those over-arching storylines are the key. I often have about 5 or 6 seperate layers of plots, of varying importance and unconnected, and each has multiple 'events' that can trigger the plot, or change it drastically - like the brigands that take over a village and are kicked out by the high level party as described above. Those brigands were actually nobles sons - deal with the kings wrath for hurting his children, only to discover his wife is an agent for good who'd manipulated the noble children into freeing the village from tyrannical mayor, and is now most wroth with the party for disrupting her plans. To redeem themselves, they are sent on a quest that's even more wrinkled with plot twists

Plot lines are your saving grace for keeping even high level characters interested. You said it yourself, when you mentioned your cavalier riding back through those dangerous woods... you mentioned 'you had to', and then described your feelings. You had to due to plot lines, and the feelings were derived from the setting

You know what you're doing - you just need to realize that and practice it

 

[Turanil]

There are plenty of good advice here! Thanks and lets continue! By the way, don't hesitate to tell me anecdotes of campaigns as players or DM, it's also a good source of inspiration (I already got an interesting idea from reading the harpie thread).

<snip>

What you're actually concerned with (from what I've read in your posts) is story flow... you want appropriate challenges for higher level characters without any real stretching of the 'willingness to believe' on the part of the players.

<snip>

That's it exactly.

Good suggestions by the way; I will especially remember about magic items. Already magic items will be special, at least in flavor. I hadn't thought about them being obvious however.