Challenging the enlarged monk

[Kalendraf]

One of the players in my weekly campaign runs a 9th level monk. One of his standard tactics has been to have the cleric (strength domain) cast enlarge on him (via a wand) to gain 10' reach, up his damage dice and improve his trip attacks. He now has enough money saved up to obtain a monk's belt which will up those damage dice still further.

After considering the damage (likely 3d6 + str bonus compared to 1d10 + str before), I'm not that concerned with the damage alone. On average, that is probably 14 to 15 points per hit, which is in the ballpark of the fighter/barbarian's damage output with a double axe (1d8 + magic + 1.5xstr + 2xpower attack, avg about 15 or so per hit, I think).

The problem is that the monk also gets those trip attacks and the 10' reach, making him perhaps too strong in comparison. Obviously, a nicely targetted dispel magic can bring the monk right back down to size, as can the end of spell duration, but in many battles, it's a fact that the monk will be probably occupy a 10x10. To me it seems jut a bit unbalanced compared to a melee fighter at this point.

In 1e/2e, being large meant a lot of weapons did almost double damage against you. In 3.5, there appears to be very little downside for being enlarged. AC does drop by 2 overall, but that's not a huge amount - at least it hasn't seemed to be. Most characters tend to have at least 1 achilles heel, whether its AC, Hit points or bad saves against something. For example the fighter/barbarian in the same party has one primary weakness - will saves. But the monk gets good saves all around and also has a high wisdom, so it's a bit tougher to find a weak spot on this character. His hit point aren't as high as the barbarian, but his AC is better. While it's cool to be able to count on a particular character being there until the end of every fight, it also seems that to be fair, the DM should try to find challenges that are tough for each character throughout their adventures.

What are some ways to challenge an enlarged monk that other characters might handle fairly easy? Traps set for giant-weight only? Expose that -2 AC penalty? Break out the forces of chaos with Protection from Law?

I'm not looking to hose the character too badly, since I managed to kill him off a couple sessions ago when an enemy fighter got extremely lucky and rolled multiple crits in the same round. Just looking for suggestions to help me challenge this particular PC.

 

[nute]

Just looking for suggestions to help me challenge this particular PC.

WIS drains are the bane of monks everywhere. Spells like Bane, Doom, Ray of Enfeeblement, and the like work excellently. As well, Hold Person on a Large character turns them into a 10x10 roadblock, good for bottlenecking a party into a corner if they're trying to hide behind the monk.

 

[the_mighty_agrippa]

The monk's BAB is a weak point. A high AC character will give him a hard time. Put him up against a Spring Attacking opponent. Pepper him with arrows, because he probably chose Improved Grapple over Deflect Arrows.

Buff a greased dwarf opponent with Bull's Strength and have him squeeze his head off.

 

[DanMcS]

I play a similarly levelled monk. At that level, you start looking for bonuses like an increase to size, because honestly, a 10thish level monk is a character begging for a whupping.

By mid levels, a monk starts to have the best AC in the party. Mine hovered around 28, next-best in the party is low 20s. It totally doesn't matter.

A monk is strongest in combat when he gets lots of attacks, from combat reflexes or flurrying. That means he has to be up in melee. The monsters you'll be fighting at mid-levels eat melee men for lunch. A CR 7 hill giant has an attack bonus of +16. The CR 9 stone giant has a +17. They hit your monk most of the time, and their damage output is such that you can't stick around for a full attack.

And don't get me started on the monsters with improved grab. A CR 6 shambling mound has a +15 grapple check, and one of those ripped my character a new one. Mid CR monsters have insane grapple bonuses.

Midlevel melee type monsters have the low CRs they do because, in spite of their high hps and massive damage, by that time parties will typically be flying or otherwise massively mobile, peppering the monsters with ranged attacks and spells. A monk does none of these things.

Against humanoid opponents, a monk shines. In the past couple sessions, my monk has been the mook-killer, holding off a halfdozen 5th level fighters and a swarm of goblins. Meanwhile, the paladin, rogue, wizard, psion, and fighter were off dealing with the actual opponents, which my monk couldn't really hit. Had I been large, I would have been a better mook killer, but still not much of a threat to the main opposition.

The way to challenge a midlevel monk, even an enlarged one, is with monsters. He can't take them well at all.

 

[Henry]

Don't forget the to hit penalties from being a larger size, as well as those squeezing penalties (in 3.5, I'm assuming) when fighting in a smaller space. A -2 to -4 to hit means his damage dice mean less and less, as do the trips.

 

[Kalendraf]

Pepper him with arrows, because he probably chose Improved Grapple over Deflect Arrows.

Actually, the 2nd level choice is between Combat Reflexes and Deflect Arrows, and I think this monk has deflect arrows. But even then, that only turns aside 1 arrow per round which is fairly minor. Peppering = lots of missiles.

By mid levels, a monk starts to have the best AC in the party. Mine hovered around 28, next-best in the party is low 20s. It totally doesn't matter.

Fairly similar to this group, although the highest AC is the cleric, and a couple other folks are more mid-20's, but I think the monk is around mid to upper 20's and close to the top.

A CR 7 hill giant has an attack bonus of +16. The CR 9 stone giant has a +17. They hit your monk most of the time, and their damage output is such that you can't stick around for a full attack.

This particular monk has Spring attack and against any large foes like that, he uses spring attack to avoid having to ever endure a full attack. Instead the giants usually wind up turning their attention to whatever target they can do a full attack against which usually winds up being either a fighter/barbarian (with fairly high HP) or the cleric. Of course a group of smarter giants (that's not necessarily an oxymoron is it?) might work together to pen in/flank a monk which could negate that tactic.

Midlevel melee type monsters have the low CRs they do because, in spite of their high hps and massive damage, by that time parties will typically be flying or otherwise massively mobile, peppering the monsters with ranged attacks and spells. A monk does none of these things.

I managed to expose the weakness to ranged attacks and flying opponents once before, but several characters lacked good range attacks at the time. Now most of them have some better ranged weapons to use including the monk.

The way to challenge a midlevel monk, even an enlarged one, is with monsters. He can't take them well at all.

Hopefully, that's all it really takes, and I'm just suffering a bit of DM-paranoia here. It just seemed the whole trip + reach + uber damage dice was going to break things.

 

[Kalendraf]

Don't forget the to hit penalties from being a larger size, as well as those squeezing penalties (in 3.5, I'm assuming) when fighting in a smaller space. A -2 to -4 to hit means his damage dice mean less and less, as do the trips.

The monk typically only uses the enlarge tactic outdoors or in large areas. In those cases, there is no penalty, since the -1 attack bonus imposed by moving from medium to large size is overcome by the +2 strength bonus from the enlarge person spell.

 

[Impeesa]

Tell him to take Improved Natural Attack (MM), start working towards Empty Hand Mastery (OA), get a Fanged Ring (Dragon #308), and pick up a command-word item of Righteous Might. Then we're talking.

Anyways, I'm playing a monstrous PC right now, a Barbarian/Paladin of Freedom headed for Frenzied Berserker. He's Large, and enormously strong - huge offensive output, especially with a flexible reach weapon (similar to the spiked chain - mmm... 20' reach). And the thing that hoses him most? Tight spaces, of course. If I can get in somewhere at all, it's unlikely I'll have a clear path to charge, I tend to block the archer's line of sight, I may suffer squeezing penalties, the list goes on. Your monk probably wouldn't find these things as annoying as I do - it just means he doesn't get Enlarged for that particular fight.

--Impeesa--

 

[Kalendraf]

Your monk probably wouldn't find these things as annoying as I do - it just means he doesn't get Enlarged for that particular fight.

Exactly. Enlarge person is one spell where the permanent version is actually less desireable than having it cast on demand. Still the idea might be exploitable. Maybe start the fight in the open, then have enemies retreat into narrow confines

 

[WizarDru]

The title of this thread sounds naughty.