Challenging the enlarged monk

[jmucchiello]

Why are you complaining that they are using Enlarge Person on the monk. You say yourself that this only brings the monk up to the damage level of the barbarian and cleric. Be thankful they aren't enlarging the barbarian or cleric. Then they'd be dealing some damage!

(And to the already large barbarian) Carry around reduce person potions.

 

[DanMcS]

Carry around reduce person potions.

That made me laugh, because I've been at work all day and am a little bit loopy. I was picturing some hapless NPC trying to fast-talk the barbarian into drinking a "reduce person" potion in the middle of combat. Tee hee.

"No, no, really, this will be good for you. Ow, ow, my head."

 

[argo]

Speaking from experience (monk player) I second the idea of simply relying on big meele critters. A monk excells at fighting mooks, spellcasters, and humanoid opponents of his same size or smaller. If he faces a big non-humanoid with decent melee abilities he will shut right down (as a player that is when I start analyzing the battlefield as a whole and look for other ways to contribute besides making attack rolls). If he uses his spring attack that just means he wastes his turn doing minimal damage while the barbarian carries the fight.

Some other nasty ideas that occur to me:

Introduce a rival monk (compleate with enlarge-capability if nessicary) as a reoccurring villan with a personal grudge against the PC (or a rival school that sends disposable monks again and again). This monk should be built for grappling and try to engage the PC monk while other concerns keep the rest of the party occupied (he allies with the existing bad guys for a chance at the PC monk). One-on-one gapple matches tend to be knock down drag out affairs so that encounter will provide plenty of drama/tension while effectively removing the monk PC from the rest of the battle. Monks make great reoccurring villans because, with a few choice magic items, nobody has a better chance of escaping a PC party without requiring DM intervention than a monk. Just make sure the party rogue doesn't come to help while the villan is grappling with the player; grapple + rogue ally = dead grappler.

Lure him into getting enlarged then swarm him with a bunch of fighters who are size small or tiny; I'm thinking a bunch of halflings with weapon finesse, rapiers and mobility under the effect of a Reduce person spell. The cumiluative modifiers to AC and attack will make his life miserable as he is pecked to death. And its funny too

Or just invent challenges well-suited to a guy with high mobility and good saves and place them in combats where it is apparent the fight is well-matched against the rest of the party. Some vital lever on a ledge somewhere needs pulling, sure the wizard could just cast Fly and zip right over there, but wouldn't he be more usefull throwing dispel-magic at the buffed enemy cleric or something?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

The first step to challenging the monk would be to scale the damage properly with Enlarge Person.

1d8 goes to 2d6
1d10 goest to 2d8
2d6 or 1d12 goes to 3d6.
(see the DMG on weapon scaling for more details).

The second method would be to think about your method of stat assignment and the treasure level in your campaign. On 28 points, a monk might start with a 14 dex and a 16 wisdom (if he was going for AC). At 9th level, he gets a +1 bonus from the monk class. If we assume that stat increases bump his wisdom to 18 at 9th level, he has a Monk's Belt (another +1 bonus), a periapt of wisdom +2, a +1 ring of protection, and gloves of dex +2, that's still only AC 21. +4 Bracers of Armor would bump that to AC 25 and dodge would push it up to AC 26 but much more than that and he either has godlike stats or a lot of loot--or both. AC 26 to 28 at 9th level is good but not exceptional. As noted, hill giants will still hit the monk half the time. That's true of any challenging melee or ranged attacker.

Third, remember to enforce the prerequisites for feats. Dodge requires a dex of 13 so an Enlarged monk who originally had a 14 dex (and now has a 12 dex) loses access to it and to mobility and spring attack. A tanglefoot bag will knock four points off of the character's effective dexterity. Even if he makes the save, he's still considered entangled and now even with a 16 dex, he won't be able to spring attack. If he is enlarged too, he needs a 19 dex (original) to still have the 13 dex required for Spring Attack. Hit the monk with a ray of exhaustion and he'll lose either 2 or 6 points more dex. On a successful save, the enlarged monk needs to have originally had a 17 dex to still be able to spring attack. On a failed save, the enlarged monk would have to have had a 21 dex to still be able to spring attack. There's an awful lot of ways to penalize a character's dex and they don't all take magic or intelligence. Even monstrous spiders like to entangle their foes with webs.

A typical (elite stat array/25 point buy) 8th level fighter will attack at +14/+9 (assuming a 15 strength +2 for levels, greater weapon focus, and a masterwork weapon). Said typical fighter will probably have +1 fullplate, a 12-13 dex, a +1 heavy shield, dodge, and maybe a ring of protection or amulet of natural amor for a 24-25 AC. I imagine the monk has a little more difficulty hitting him that he has hitting the monk. (Which is to say they both need to roll decently to hit). Give that fighter an allied druid, cleric or wizard for haste (+1 AC), Prayer (-1 to hit for the PC-- and -1 to ability checks with +1 to the cleric's allies which really hurts a tripping character), Protection from good/law (as appropriate) or shield of faith +2-+3 AC, barkskin +3 AC or Bear's Heart, bless, rage, bardsong, etc and he'll eat the monk for lunch. Enlarge Person brings the monk's damage up a bit but it also drops his AC to where the fighter only has to avoid rolling poorly in order to hit him.

Assuming the monk has a 14-16 strength too, his trip roll will be +11-+12 when enlarged. That's good but remember that a raging 8th level orc barbarian (25 strength when raging) will have +7 and not only will the monk lose the trip check a noticable number of times but he will get tripped in return something like 15% of the time.

A few other things to remember: enlarge person has a one-round casting time (and wands take the same amount of time to use as the spell takes to cast). So the NPCs have a chance to disarm or sunder the wand. An enlarged character also is quite obviously magically enhanced. It doesn't take a lot of thought to hit him with a tanglefoot bag, dispel magic, ray of enfeeblement, enervation (not only will he not be able to hit, but the negative level penalty applies to ability checks like trip checks too), or ray of exhaustion, or even Waves of Fatigue.

Lastly, remember that Enlarge Person isn't just the domain of PCs. At 9th level, you can expect plenty of NPCs to have access to Enlarge Person--even if they're not spellcasters, a potion only costs 250gp which is chump change, even to an NPC at 9th level. Let the PC have a taste of his own medicine. Toss him up against an enlarged raging 8th level orc barbarian with a greataxe. Or toss him up against a clever, enlarged human fighter with bull's strength and enlarge person active and who's using a spiked chain or a guisarme with Improved Trip. (modified strength 22, +14 to trip checks). Too be really nasty, have the fighter quickdraw a tanglefoot bag and smack the monk with it before making his trip attack. That way, he may drop the monk's dex to the point where the monk can't spring attack him after he gets up and has to provoke an AoO in order to attack the guisarme wielder--an AoO which can be used to trip the monk.

 

[Kalendraf]

Why are you complaining that they are using Enlarge Person on the monk. You say yourself that this only brings the monk up to the damage level of the barbarian and cleric.

I mentioned the cleric's AC, but not his damage level. Cleric has thus far trailed a long way behind both the monk and the fighter/barb in the damage category. But he's more than made up for it with his spell contributions.

It's not the equal damage I'm worried about, but rather the fact that the enlarged monk gains reach and has those nasty trip & stun attacks which combined with this high damage capability make him much more devestating than the fighter/barbarian in many combats.

 

[Kalendraf]

The first step to challenging the monk would be to scale the damage properly with Enlarge Person.

I probably wasn't clear enough, but the jump from 1d10 to 3d6 is factoring in both the new item (monk's belt) and the enlarge. So right now when he enlarges he actualy jumps from 1d10 to 2d8. After buying the belt, he'll be jumping from 2d6 to 3d6 via the enlarge. I was merely trying to point out how big a jump the 1 item + 1 spell contribute toward the character's damage dice.

The second method would be to think about your method of stat assignment and the treasure level in your campaign

28 point buy for stats, but 3 stats get randomly bumped by 1 point after assigning them. He managed to score +1's 3 key stats (dex,str & wis I think).
This campaign has lower magic than a "normal" campaign as suggested by the DMG. IIRC, the monk currently has a +2 ring (deflection), +1 amulet (natural), +1 bracers (armor) and a +1 robe (sacred). He also has a special staff that under certain conditions can confer a +1 shield bonus. Besides those 6 magic points of AC, the 9th level monk gains +1 AC, and I think his combined wisdom and dex give him another +6 or so. And he has the dodge feat. Together, that only registers as about 24. Maybe I was incorrect about his overall armor class being in the upper 20's and confusing it with the fact that mobility puts him in the upper 20's against AoO's.

Third, remember to enforce the prerequisites for feats

Good point. I haven't considered that before. I'll have to check if his dex is 16 or 14. That could make a big difference.

A few other things to remember: enlarge person has a one-round casting time

Typically this is the clerics round 1 or 2 action in many battles. In those cases where the druid or rogue scout and surprise the enemy, it occurs right before the party springs their ambush.

An enlarged character also is quite obviously magically enhanced. It doesn't take a lot of thought to hit him with a tanglefoot bag, dispel magic, ray of enfeeblement, enervation (not only will he not be able to hit, but the negative level penalty applies to ability checks like trip checks too), or ray of exhaustion, or even Waves of Fatigue.

This particular campaign features fewer arcane casters than normal. Rays of enfeeblement and eneravation and so forth are fairly uncommon. May have to have foes stock up on tanglefoot bags though. Have never used them much in the past, but I can see how they'd be useful for this.

Lastly, remember that Enlarge Person isn't just the domain of PCs. At 9th level, you can expect plenty of NPCs to have access to Enlarge Person

With few arcane casters, the main source of this spell turns out to be clerics with the Strength domain. That particular god also happens to be of good alignment. Potions are an option, but with fewer crafters able to make them, they are harder to find as well.

 

[MarauderX]

I used to play a Monk5/F2/W1 so I could take advantage of the extra feats and 1st level spells (Enlarge & Mage Armor). He had the feat Great Throw (an addendum to OA) and tossed people all over the place, wherever he wanted as long as be beat their Trip Check. His check, while enlarged, was +4 (Impr. Trip) +4 (Large creature) and +3 (STR) = +11. The only foes who I was afraid to face were Large and strong, as with another opposed check meant that my monk was tripped instead, but not a death-sentence by far.

To counter this I would recommend tagging the caster with a silence before he gets the spell. Another tactic would be to add Impr. Trip to all the foes facing him to even the odds, and make them tough guys to prevent each one going down. You could throw dwarves at them too, as they have a +4 stability bonus, or give some foes the stability bonus if they are an odd race.

If that monk doesn't have a great AC, gang up on him to bring him down first with the melee guys. Throw some enlarged, enraged barbarians with Impr. Trip at him and watch him suffer as they surround and pummel him when he goes prone. If he has a good tumble skill he might just bound out of it, but he will be a little more frightened to tangle with the higher STR guys.

Use poison to sap his STR and a pack of stirges to work against his large size.

 

[Chimera]

As others have said, gang up on him. When he's Enlarged and in Charge, as it were, he's the most visible, most obvious target on the battlefield. Most people are going to see him first.

Sucks to be him when there are a lot of enemies. Especially ones with bows, who can't help but notice this large target...

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I probably wasn't clear enough, but the jump from 1d10 to 3d6 is factoring in both the new item (monk's belt) and the enlarge. So right now when he enlarges he actualy jumps from 1d10 to 2d8. After buying the belt, he'll be jumping from 2d6 to 3d6 via the enlarge. I was merely trying to point out how big a jump the 1 item + 1 spell contribute toward the character's damage dice.

It makes sense now.

28 point buy for stats, but 3 stats get randomly bumped by 1 point after assigning them. He managed to score +1's 3 key stats (dex,str & wis I think).
This campaign has lower magic than a "normal" campaign as suggested by the DMG. IIRC, the monk currently has a +2 ring (deflection), +1 amulet (natural), +1 bracers (armor) and a +1 robe (sacred). He also has a special staff that under certain conditions can confer a +1 shield bonus. Besides those 6 magic points of AC, the 9th level monk gains +1 AC, and I think his combined wisdom and dex give him another +6 or so. And he has the dodge feat. Together, that only registers as about 24. Maybe I was incorrect about his overall armor class being in the upper 20's and confusing it with the fact that mobility puts him in the upper 20's against AoO's.

Hmm. It doesn't sound that much lower than normal magic to me. Standard PC gear value would be 36,000 at 9th level.

This character has:
+2 ring (8,000)
Monk's Belt (13,000)
+1 amulet (2,000),
+1 bracers (1,000)
+1 robe (difficult to price--I'll put it at 5,000 stince that's the cost of rose prism ioun stone which most closely approximates its function)
Staff (difficult to price under normal circumstances--I'd guess something around 6,000 which is 75% of the price of a +1 defender staff).
Total: 24,000-35,000gp (depending upon the valuation of the last two items) spent on items that affect his AC. If he has some potions and a few miscellaneous items too (as most characters I know if home games do), he's probably right at the D&D standard wealth level.

Good point. I haven't considered that before. I'll have to check if his dex is 16 or 14. That could make a big difference.

Until he gets hit with a tanglefoot bag

This particular campaign features fewer arcane casters than normal. Rays of enfeeblement and eneravation and so forth are fairly uncommon. May have to have foes stock up on tanglefoot bags though. Have never used them much in the past, but I can see how they'd be useful for this.

I suppose you could make up a weakness domain centered upon neutralizing an opponent's life and energy and use evil clerics as foes:
Granted power: touch of weakness: 1/day you can make a melee touch attack against an opponent. This touch attack does 1d6 str damage/6 levels, Fort save (DC=10+1/2 clr lvl + cha mod) for 1/2
1. Doom
2. Ray of Enfeeblement
3. Ray of Exhaustion
4. Bestow Curse
5. Enervation
6. Waves of Fatigue
7. Symbol of Weakness
8. Waves of Exhaustion
9. Energy Drain

That might be a bit cheesy though. (Still, I think it looks like a pretty good domain).

With few arcane casters, the main source of this spell turns out to be clerics with the Strength domain. That particular god also happens to be of good alignment. Potions are an option, but with fewer crafters able to make them, they are harder to find as well.

Well, couldn't the god just go evil?

OK, well if that's not an option, I'd give some enemies the prone attack feat (Complete Warrior) and possibly invent a feat--steadfast or something to that effect that gives +4 to checks to resist trips, bull rushes, awesome blows, improved grab grapple attempts, and +4 to any saving throw to avoid being moved (for instance, against Telekinesis or being caught in an air elemental's whirlwind form).

 

[Capellan]

The monk typically only uses the enlarge tactic outdoors or in large areas. In those cases, there is no penalty, since the -1 attack bonus imposed by moving from medium to large size is overcome by the +2 strength bonus from the enlarge person spell.

Don't forget the -2 AC penalty (-1 large, -1 for -2 DEX). While he's able to hurt the enemy some more, he's also 10% easier to hit. Against enemies with big damage bonus, that's a problem.

Also, as others have noted, the tripping thing might work great against most humanoids, but Dwarves, Giants and many monsters will laugh it off.

Also, having a 10x10 base makes him more vulnerable to swarming and flanking tactics.

And if you have Complete Warrior, use a halfling with the Giantslayer tactical feat on him