D&D 5E changes to wiz/ arcane trick and eldritch kn (For campaign homebrew)

[HammerMan]

hey I am thinking about running a high magic campaign based around being former members of a mage school.

I want to give everyone a bit of a buff BUT I plan to give the two sub classes a big one. I just want your thoughts on how over powered these changes are. (if everyone helps and this thread takes off I will list my other possible buffs)

Modifications to Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight…. Both sub classes become half casters (use artificer chart starting at level 3) instead of 1/3. Both have a spell book instead of spells known and can prep the number of spells normally known. They start at 3rd level with 3 spells known that must be of the correct schools, every other level they learn 1 new spell for there book that always must be of the schools limited. However hey can learn ANY spell from Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock or Wizard they just need to find a spellbook/scroll/teacher. They each gain 1 extra cantrip that cannot be a combat/damage one.

a universal buff I am making is all spell casters treat Detect Magic as a cantrip they can learn.

 

[ECMO3]

EK might be ok with that change, but it would mean no Paladins and few Rangers at the table I think.

AT would be OP if you keep all the powers already in the class and subclass and add more spells and a larger "spellbook".

 

[HammerMan]

EK might be ok with that change, but it would mean no Paladins and few Rangers at the table I think.

AT would be OP if you keep all the powers already in the class and subclass and add more spells and a larger "spellbook".

we already see almost no rangers in my home game, and I REALLY want to incentivize ARCANE classes. If you don't mind me asking, what rouge/AT power are you thinking would over power with the ability to learn more spells?

 

[ECMO3]

we already see almost no rangers in my home game, and I REALLY want to incentivize ARCANE classes. If you don't mind me asking, what rouge/AT power are you thinking would over power with the ability to learn more spells?

The AT has so much already, especially with Mage Hand Legerdemain and Magical Ambush. RAW Magical ambush with bonus action hide is kept from being way over the top by the fact it takes 13 levels to get 3rd level spells and even with a multiclass you would need to be 11th level for 3rd level spells and could never get higher than 6th level slots. If you make the Rogue a half caster this is coming on much faster. The extra cantrip would mean an AT has more than a wizard.

Also you have the synergy between evasion and absorb elements, sneak attack and find familiar and the general utility of shield. All Rogues potentially have those synergies, but they only can select 2 non-illusions/enchantments until 14th level, and only 1 until 8th, so they have to select one or the other. Giving an expanded spell book gives them all of them and giving them more uses allows them to spam shield, where they would normally need to be judicious so as not to run out of slots.

With 5E I don't really see a desinction between "arcane" and other casters. There are just casters of one of three types - full, half or one-third.

 

[HammerMan]

The AT has so much already, especially with Mage Hand Legerdemain and Magical Ambush. RAW Magical ambush with bonus action hide is kept from being way over the top by the fact it takes 13 levels to get 3rd level spells and even with a multiclass you would need to be 11th level for 3rd level spells and could never get higher than 6th level slots. If you make the Rogue a half caster this is coming on much faster. The extra cantrip would mean an AT has more than a wizard.

Also you have the synergy between evasion and absorb elements, sneak attack and find familiar and the general utility of shield. All Rogues potentially have those synergies, but they only can select 2 non-illusions/enchantments until 14th level, and only 1 until 8th, so they have to select one or the other. Giving an expanded spell book gives them all of them and giving them more uses allows them to spam shield, where they would normally need to be judicious so as not to run out of slots.

With 5E I don't really see a desinction between "arcane" and other casters. There are just casters of one of three types - full, half or one-third.

Thank you, all of that is things to think about.

I was going to upgrade the wizard too. And I was using Arcane for short hand, I want to incentivize playing scholarly magic users.

I always try to allow anything but I want to make playing more in theme a benfit.

 

[Blue]

hey I am thinking about running a high magic campaign based around being former members of a mage school.

I want to give everyone a bit of a buff BUT I plan to give the two sub classes a big one. I just want your thoughts on how over powered these changes are. (if everyone helps and this thread takes off I will list my other possible buffs)

Modifications to Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight…. Both sub classes become half casters (use artificer chart starting at level 3) instead of 1/3. Both have a spell book instead of spells known and can prep the number of spells normally known. They start at 3rd level with 3 spells known that must be of the correct schools, every other level they learn 1 new spell for there book that always must be of the schools limited. However hey can learn ANY spell from Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock or Wizard they just need to find a spellbook/scroll/teacher. They each gain 1 extra cantrip that cannot be a combat/damage one.

a universal buff I am making is all spell casters treat Detect Magic as a cantrip they can learn.

It's a pretty big buff, but one that puts them near the top of the power range, not over it. EK might end up a bit too powerful.

Except being able to learn from the other lists. That's too much even if it was the only change. That's taking the absolutely longest spell list, and adding in the little parts that they reserved to for other classes. You pick up some healing from bard, you pick up warlock specialties (that work better on a melee chassis then your generic warlock), etc.

 

[Ancalagon]

I share the concerns expressed by others.

I think that the concern about too broad a spell list is well founded. I think that a more reasonable boost would be to keep the current model, which is that the AT/EK get one "not limited" spell per each spell level they get, but adjusted for being a half caster. So instead of one at character level 4, 8, 14 and 20, it would be at level 3, 6, 10, 14 and 18.

Lastly, it may make level progression a bit... janky. For example, getting level 2 slots is important, but now happens a level earlier - meaning level 6 for an EK is a bump in spell power AND a feat.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

I think the basic issue with spell progression is that the 1st level spells only phase, during which casters don't really have enough spell slots to use them freely, lasts until level 7, which is just too long for these subclasses to really come online. Their power level after that seems fine to me. Making them halfcasters solves this problem, but it gives them an unneeded power boost at higher levels. Personally I think the more suitable progression for them would be something like 1/3 caster advanced by 1 or 2 levels.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I like it, I would keep it only to wizard spells though. (are there only sorcerer only spells or is it still wiz has every sorc spell) cut out bard, warlock for sure.

Tbh the treasure of spell books/finding teachers would determine how awesome this is... also how you plan to pump wizards (who I assume already would have had the bard/warlock spell add on).

Now will this world have artificers? FOr that matter does it have sorcerers warlocks and bards?

in my latest campaigns I am allowing 2 subclasses for your first class chosen (but not others you multi into, and for warlock you have to choose 1 of the subclasses to double so 2 patrons, or 2 pacts with same not both) I think doing that but requiring the Fighter and Rogue to HAVE to take AT/EK might work better.

 

[ECMO3]

I think the basic issue with spell progression is that the 1st level spells only phase, during which casters don't really have enough spell slots to use them freely, lasts until level 7, which is just too long for these subclasses to really come online. Their power level after that seems fine to me. Making them halfcasters solves this problem, but it gives them an unneeded power boost at higher levels. Personally I think the more suitable progression for them would be something like 1/3 caster advanced by 1 or 2 levels.

Yeah but EK is out damaging all other casters in weapon combat while sporting heavy armor and the AT is comparable to half casters in damage with more skills, more expertise and arguably the best bonus action in the game in mage hand legerdemain.