Changin the Stunned condition

[Stalker0]

People have argued that at high levels the stunned condition becomes too strong and removes fun because it denies all actions. Further, they save that high level monsters take too long to kill. This might be an idea that helps both.

Stunned

- A stunned creature is dazed. In addition, the crit range of any attack roll against the creature is increased by 2.

This a hybrid of the old stunned (which shuts down actions) and the helpless condition (which allows for autocrits).

This prevent monsters from being completely stopped, but also lets them be killed quicker. It also creates more synergy between players, as the wizard stuns a monster to allow his striker buddies to beat the creature to pulp.


The condition could also be adjusted in the following ways if people don't like the initial idea:

New houserule is too strong: Reduce the crit range increase to +1, not +2.

New houserule is too weak: Include the slowed condition (so dazed and slowed).

 

[FireLance]

How about a slightly different approach which more or less achieves the same goals?

A stunned creature is dazed. In addition, any action that it takes provokes opportunity attacks.​

This gives the stunned creature the option to do nothing, in which case it is no worse off than under the current rules. However, if it chooses to act, its opponents get the chance to kill it faster.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

You will want to consider what the implications of any of these sorts of changes are with respect to stunned PCs as well. Is Stalker0's solution going to actually make things WORSE for a stunned PC. It might not seem so at first glance, but it might actually. Solos have a lot of hit points. Making them take some additional damage will cut back the length of a combat, but PCs are a whole different kettle of fish and forcing them to use more healing might not be for the best.

 

[keterys]

FireLance's option works for both PCs and Monsters, in that respect. A PC can just choose to pass his turn if he can't handle being OAed.

Another option might be something like:
A stunned creature is dazed and takes a -5 penalty to attack rolls.

Sorta blind + daze, but not quite.

 

[Mengu]

Another option might be something like:
A stunned creature is dazed and takes a -5 penalty to attack rolls.

Sorta blind + daze, but not quite.

I like this. It turns a stun condition into a good time to use second wind, or a standard or move action encounter ability that doesn't require an attack roll, or to use an action to assist another.

For stunned monsters, a -5 attack bonus may be a bit harsh, but they don't have a terrible time hitting usualy, especially the high level ones you really want to stun. So I think it's a good compromise.

 

[Elric]

If you change Stun in this way, you should reword powers like Seal of Binding and Ice Tomb from stunning a creature to "the creature can take no actions."

I think both of these powers would have been better if this had been their wording in the first place. For example, if you use Seal of Binding on a hydra it’s barely affected; Pelor’s mighty seal can only stop one head at a time, but still grants the hydra immunity to attack

Seal of Binding also deserves a house rule (or even better, errata) limiting it to being Sustained 3 times, like Hurl through Hell. Among other things, this removes the combo with Demigod's Divine Regeneration. However, that's a separate issue.

 

[Stalker0]

How about a slightly different approach which more or less achieves the same goals?

A stunned creature is dazed. In addition, any action that it takes provokes opportunity attacks.​

Great for a party of melee, terrible for a ranged type party.

 

[Stalker0]

FireLance's option works for both PCs and Monsters, in that respect. A PC can just choose to pass his turn if he can't handle being OAed.

Another option might be something like:
A stunned creature is dazed and takes a -5 penalty to attack rolls.

Sorta blind + daze, but not quite.

My only issue with this is that you haven't changed stunned you have just nerfed it. -5 to attacks is a heck of a lot better than no attacks at all. With my original method its better for the stunned creature in that they get to take actions, and worse in that they may take more damage.

 

[Elric]

My only issue with this is that you haven't changed stunned you have just nerfed it. -5 to attacks is a heck of a lot better than no attacks at all. With my original method its better for the stunned creature in that they get to take actions, and worse in that they may take more damage.

I don't see a change to stun being a simple nerf as particularly problematic. However, Stun is notable for inflicting such a large penalty on offense while inflicting no more than the usual "grants CA" on defense. You could change that as follows (or in many ways like it):

A stunned creature is dazed and takes a -4 penalty to attack rolls and a -2 penalty to defenses.

 

[keterys]

Yeah... I'm pretty okay with just nerfing stunned.

I also am okay with nerfing all of the powers that take away actions, like Seal of Binding.