Changing Saving Throws (Will)

[SylverFlame]

Hey,

I was wondering how this would affect gameplay. First, I haven't play tested this, nor have I overly considered it, but I think it may work.

What if the will saving throw were based on Charisma instead of Wisdom? Charisma is supposed to be your force of character anyways, while Wisdomis awareness, though mostly of the world (as opposed to yourself) if you look at the skills it effects.

Now then, this would really help bards and sorcerers as their magic is based on it. As well, Psions using charisma as their primary stat (I can't remember the technical name).

I kind of like this move as aside from a few skills that are not used very often, charisma has very little use. Wisdom on the other hand, affects all divine spells and has power skills like listen, spot, wilderness lore, etc.

Does this change make sense? Is it balanced? Also, are their any reasons to keep saving throws as they are?

EDIT: Minor issues with grammer/spelling.

 

[Staffan]

The way I see it, Charisma is "offensive" willpower and Wisdom is "defensive" - a bit like Strength is "offensive" physique and Constitution is "defensive". Therefore, it makes sense that Wisdom would be the defensive stat for mental assaults.

 

[Stalker0]

In many ways I think of charisma and bravery to be related. A charismatic character pushes his ideas forward, even in the face of adversity. With that in mind, I could see allowing cha to be used for some will saving throws, maybe against fear. But against things like charms, dominations, etc, that's more of not can you push your personality over the magic, but can you find it amidst the chaos in your mind.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I've been using this rule since 3e arrived, for much the same reasons you give (you can read my full rationale on my website below).

The most abusive situation that occurs is that paladins effectively get to add double their CHA bonus (once as standard, once for divine grace). I have to tell you, that even having had two paladins adventuring during that time this has done nothing to hamper the game.

The general side effect is that Bards and Sorcerers have the best Will ST now instead of Clerics and Druids, which suits me just fine.

An added side effect is that Charismatic Fighters who are Leaders of Men (tm) are also harder to mentally control.

Basically it is a good and valid change, it won't ruin your game. We've been using it for, what, over 2.5 years now? Characters just reaching 11th/12th level.

Cheers

 

[Technik4]

I would let a character alter it with a feat (Force of Personality - use cha instead of wis for Will saving throws).

Technik

 

[Impeesa]

I also had the same though some time ago. The first thing that came to mind was the paladin issue... I thought, maybe change them so their bonus to all saves came from wisdom? Kind of makes sense...

--Impeesa--

 

[Plane Sailing]

I also had the same though some time ago. The first thing that came to mind was the paladin issue... I thought, maybe change them so their bonus to all saves came from wisdom? Kind of makes sense...

--Impeesa--

It really hasn't proven to be a problem - at the moment there is an 11th level paladin with (enhanced) CHA of 22. His total will ST is about +15, but that has just been an interesting story element - nasty wizards and clerics obviously target the "fighter" type with a will-based spell, and are astonished when his personality and faith pull him straight through it.

 

[mmu1]

I don't think it's going to ruin the game, but as far as "realism" goes, it's a baseless change.

Actors, models, assorted other celebrities, etc. are all considered charismatic, but judging by the number of DUI stops, deaths from choking on vomit, Betty Ford treatments, sexual assault charges, and so on, none of them really strike me as being all that good at resisting temptation or having a very good perception of reality.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Actors, models, assorted other celebrities, etc. are all considered charismatic, but judging by the number of DUI stops, deaths from choking on vomit, Betty Ford treatments, sexual assault charges, and so on, none of them really strike me as being all that good at resisting temptation or having a very good perception of reality.

On the other hand they needed a heck of a lot of willpower and drive to get to that celebrity position, don't you know!

 

[SylverFlame]

I don't consider addiction a will ST mmu1, but I see where you're coming from. The paladin issue is a sticky one, but Plane Sailing is allaying my fears nicely...

I think I may suggest this to the party DM when games start back up.

EDIT: Pulled sig.