D&D 4E Changing the Combat Parameters of 4th Edition

[Manbearcat]

@Myrhdraak , I think there is another axis to the Epic Tier that plays a central role here; the increasing potency and breadth of PC build resources. The Epic Destiny features basically turn PCs into superheroes, level 20+ magic item properties and powers are extraordinarily powerful, Epic Feats are extremely powerful. Level 22 Utilities are extremely powerful. All of this synergizes with the continual scaling of their general portfolio to force-multiply each PC a fair bit.

Consider just the Bladesinger PC I mentioned above just before Epic Tier to actual end of the Epic Tier.

1) Bladesong gets bumped up +5 more damage.
2) Bladesong gets the opportunity to be refreshed 2 more times per day (or another Utility). It was already nearly permanently up. Now it is basically guaranteed to buff the PC +2 hit/defenses and +15 damage with 100 % uptime.
3) MBA and Bladespells further scale and Bladespell can CB1 once/day.
4) Level 30 ED feature grants Quicksilver Blade (and another level 25 Daily I can't recall) from Swordmage. This allows MBAs as Minor Actions.
5) Gains Correlon's Boon of Arcane Might (Alternate Reward level 23) which gives him a legit Arcane At-Will (along with a level 17 Encounter Power). Takes Quickened Spellcasting feat so now he can use that new At-Will as a Minor Action.
6) Gains +6 Fort, +4 Ref, +4 Will through stackable feats.
7) Armor jumps up another +3ish with Armor Proficiency Hide and endgame hide armor.
8) ED gives +2 Int and Dex
9) At level 24, ED gives the typical defy death ability once/day. Go back to full HPs, gain size Large, gain Insubstantial (and Phasing), and have all of your abilties.
10) Gain Daily to turn into Dragon; size Huge, Reach increases to 3 squares, gain fly speed equal to your speed +2, gain at-will CBL5 breath weapon (highest ability score +9 vs. Reflex. Hit: 3d8 + your highest ability modifier fire and force damage).

The character's Action Economy potency will increase significantly as every round will include a Minor Action to either make a very powerful attack (super-charged MBA + Bladespell or supercharged AoE) or retain Bladesong uptime. The character's passive mitigation/survivability will increase significantly. The character's overall utility (breadth and potency) will increase significantly.

That doesn't even include the much more powerful (Encounters as) Dailies the PC gets at 25 and 29 (opening up new status effects, etc). Further, it doesn't include the force-multiplication of the other two PCs with their further proliferated MBA granting abilities. The character doesn't have an Ioun Stone (which would make things worse).

Same goes for the Rogue and Druid/Warlord. All the PC build components (outside of the basic PC maths vs obstacles chassis and the daily attrition model) "compounds the problem" (if you consider the loosening of the bounds at Epic Tier as "a problem").

* EDIT - One thing I forgot to mention. Stun (and possibly Dominate if the fiction can legitimize it) should be in play for p42 stunting in the Epic Tier.

 

[Myrhdraak]

You seem to basically be doubling damage.

I am trying to compensate for the extreme healing capability WotC has introduced at higher level in order to make the game play in a similar way across all the levels - then those damage levels are needed. You could do as you suggest but that would mean that you would have to have different Encounter building guidlines at different levels, and as the change is gradient it is very hard to exactly say when you should use one or the other. The other option would be to try to reduce healing instead. Which I tried out for natural healing (and it work fine at lower levels), but at higher levels the amount of magical healing makes it irrelevant (at least how 4th Edition is built today).

But maybe we will have to look at hybrid anyway. The risk that the monsters take out a character in a single or two lucky strikes, is of course very much higher with the damage numbers we need to have to compensate for the healing. One thing would maybe be to look at surgeless healing and get rid of it, maybe reduce the strength of the Healing Word, and also maybe assume that the average D&D party build do not have the full healing capability as a maximized Cleric.

 

[Myrhdraak]

Oh, I thought you were trying to improve it. ;| ...

So, you /are/ aiming at 6-8 encounter/day attrition style play?
That makes sense.
Sorry to be so dense.

I like the idea that not every encounter have to be tactical and taking long time to resolve. I want to be able to run some short but meaningful encounters that somehow tax the players. As we have shown earlier, 4th Edition is not really built for that.

I'm sorry, are you going for 5e? Because in 5e, the prescriptive pacing is as much (if not more) about class balance as encounter balance. A 3-encounter day, for instance, could be made challenging in 4e pretty easily, while in 5e very short days, not only allow novas that make challenge tricky, they start to highlight class imbalances.

Pacing is something I'm usually not that concerned with in 4e. The odd single-encounter day or very long day doesn't have a profound impact the way it could when daily resources were more prevalent as well as much more powerful than at-wills and could be nova'd.

I do not like all aspects of 5e, and want to stay with 4e, but being able to more easily use 5e adventure material for my 4e play.

As far as encounter design guidelines and encounter balance go, 'working more like 5e' would be, well, integrating more uncertainty into the formula, if that's a nice way to say it.

If you with uncertainty means game dealiness, yes that is one of the ambitions I have. I would like the sweat spot of a deadly end to an encounter be more frequent, but still in DM Control. As we can see in the analysis Epic level game play looks very hard to plan as DM as the design builder guidelines are not relevant anymore - they are outright faulty.

I haven't notice the problem with encounter balance at epic that you guys have... though, even if encounter balance shifts from the intended level of challenge, at least class balance seems to be reasonably stable, and, like pemerton you can just up the ante until you're back in the zone (oh, and, coincidence: that'll make advancement speed up, which'd also be more like 5e at high level).

You do not have to play it to see it. The numbers show it clearly, and yes we are after balanced DM encounter building guidelines, not class balance. Class balance is a default in 4th Edition - and a reason why I like it.

Anyway, I suppose I should just let you get on with it and not bother you. I'm just not grokking the exercise, I guess.

I am fine if this is not your cup of tea, but I would happily have your input and experience contributing to getting parts of the machinery better.

 

[pemerton]

Bladesong gets the opportunity to be refreshed 2 more times per day

Where is this coming from?

 

[Myrhdraak]

@Myrhdraak , I think there is another axis to the Epic Tier that plays a central role here; the increasing potency and breadth of PC build resources. The Epic Destiny features basically turn PCs into superheroes, level 20+ magic item properties and powers are extraordinarily powerful, Epic Feats are extremely powerful. Level 22 Utilities are extremely powerful. All of this synergizes with the continual scaling of their general portfolio to force-multiply each PC a fair bit.

Now I get double messages here (which is fine, but make it harder for me to decide upon a way forward). Pemerton suggest that the doubling of monster damage output at Epic level play could really hurt the game balance and might not be the right way forward. At the same time, you are pointing to another important fact - healing is not the only thing we have to look at. Many of the Epic Powers are further playing to the party's favor at high level play - thereby indicating that maybe the doubling of damage output is the right way to go anyway, to meet this new Power creep.
What do you think is the right way forward - staying with only increasing damage output to compensate for increased healing, or going for a hybrid where we by reducing the healing capability can take down the damage output a notch?

 

[pemerton]

Pemerton suggest that the doubling of monster damage output at Epic level play could really hurt the game balance and might not be the right way forward. At the same time, you are pointing to another important fact - healing is not the only thing we have to look at. Many of the Epic Powers are further playing to the party's favor at high level play - thereby indicating that maybe the doubling of damage output is the right way to go anyway, to meet this new Power creep.

I don't see any real tension between [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]'s post and mine.

I express concern that by doubling damage you change the balance between character builds. Manbearcat is pointing to other dimensions of epic PC capability beyond healing. Changing damage/healing but leaving everything else the same will change the balance across these other dimensions.

One way to look at it would be this: if you double damage, and hold everything else more-or-less constant, you need to (roughly) halve the number of creatures (which will bring the EL down by 4, which is your goal). Which makes striking more useful and control less useful - because the utility of control increases with the need of the players to "manage" the encounter over time and space; and fewer creatures means less time, less space and hence less need to manage with respect to them.

I guess this is the 5e outcome! But it seems a departure from 4e, as the changed environment makes the "intricate" 4e builds relatively less useful.

 

[Myrhdraak]

I don't see any real tension between @Manbearcat's post and mine.

I express concern that by doubling damage you change the balance between character builds. Manbearcat is pointing to other dimensions of epic PC capability beyond healing. Changing damage/healing but leaving everything else the same will change the balance across these other dimensions.

One way to look at it would be this: if you double damage, and hold everything else more-or-less constant, you need to (roughly) halve the number of creatures (which will bring the EL down by 4, which is your goal). Which makes striking more useful and control less useful - because the utility of control increases with the need of the players to "manage" the encounter over time and space; and fewer creatures means less time, less space and hence less need to manage with respect to them.

I guess this is the 5e outcome! But it seems a departure from 4e, as the changed environment makes the "intricate" 4e builds relatively less useful.

I agree, if you want to keep the damage/attack the same, but increase monster damage per round, you could go the route to create monsters with same damage/attack but half the Hit Points and double the amount of monsters. I think S'mon was playing around with that idea in his new campaign (Post #116). However, doubling monsters would also change the balance between character builds - characters with blast and area effects would be more effective than others, so it will change either way.
Big question is if change is bad? Maybe Epic level play should be different? Monsters dealing more damage will feel more Epic, but I agree that if the whole game becomes very unstable due to one lucky strike from a monster resulting in a key character being out - it would not be a nice game experience. Maybe a hybrid solution is the only way forward? I think I will explore that option and see were it leads us. If we could get down to a 50% damage increase at Epic level I think it might be ok.

 

[Manbearcat]

Where is this coming from?

Ring of Wizardry (level 21 item) and Arcane Recall (level 22 Utility) are the ones at Epic Tier and Battlemaster Weapon and Storm Spell (level 11 PP feature) at Heroic and Paragon. The player would also refresh Arcane Gate with AR and SS (if he rolled high enough on Wisdom check), but its typical usage was Bladesong uptime.

I don't see any real tension between @Manbearcat's post and mine.

I express concern that by doubling damage you change the balance between character builds. Manbearcat is pointing to other dimensions of epic PC capability beyond healing. Changing damage/healing but leaving everything else the same will change the balance across these other dimensions.

One way to look at it would be this: if you double damage, and hold everything else more-or-less constant, you need to (roughly) halve the number of creatures (which will bring the EL down by 4, which is your goal). Which makes striking more useful and control less useful - because the utility of control increases with the need of the players to "manage" the encounter over time and space; and fewer creatures means less time, less space and hence less need to manage with respect to them.

I guess this is the 5e outcome! But it seems a departure from 4e, as the changed environment makes the "intricate" 4e builds relatively less useful.

I agree, if you want to keep the damage/attack the same, but increase monster damage per round, you could go the route to create monsters with same damage/attack but half the Hit Points and double the amount of monsters. I think S'mon was playing around with that idea in his new campaign (Post #116). However, doubling monsters would also change the balance between character builds - characters with blast and area effects would be more effective than others, so it will change either way.
Big question is if change is bad? Maybe Epic level play should be different? Monsters dealing more damage will feel more Epic, but I agree that if the whole game becomes very unstable due to one lucky strike from a monster resulting in a key character being out - it would not be a nice game experience. Maybe a hybrid solution is the only way forward? I think I will explore that option and see were it leads us. If we could get down to a 50% damage increase at Epic level I think it might be ok.

I think there are going to be a lot of knock-on effects from doubling monster damage:

1) The game will trend toward "Rocket Tag" and away from the "Heroic Rally" narrative inherent to 4e. This will up the value of Initiative augmenting PC build components. It will up the power of Warlords even further (Combat Leader). It will up the power of Feats like Improved Initiative, Wasteland Wanderer, Superior Initiative. It will up the power of Daily powers that let the group or player augment (often dramatically) their Initiative (way too many to list spread over Skill Powers, Themes, Classes, etc). Expect to see those much more often.

2) It would likely either (a) hurt Defenders significantly in that the spike damage is beyond their ability to endure or (b) pigeonhole all Defenders toward specialization in + defenses and a large suite of immediate interrupt encounter powers which augment defenses.

3) If healing can't keep up with spike damage, expect to see Leader's that don't force-multiply as a primary shtick to decrease in value.

4) As pemerton mentioned it will hurt the squishier melee strikers. Therefore, it will further encourage the ranged artillery version of strikers. This would in turn diminish Defender's melee control (to a degree), thereby further decreasing their value.

5) Coupled with all of the above, it will up the value of Controller effects that create blocking terrain (walls, disposable summoned creatures, etc), the Weakened status effect (thereby undoing the change), and outright action denial.

EDIT - Forgot. Along with ranged artillery being further valued, you're also going to value Slowed as an at-will rider on ranged effects (and Dazed/Slowed/Immobilized on low level Encounter Powers). So...kiting.

---

Alternatively, consider the implications of merely doubling damage at Bloodied. You'll get a sort of reverse effect of 13th Age's Escalation Die (though even more pronounced). NPCs would go from being front-loaded to back-loaded. This will (i) negatively impact 4e's inherent "Rally Narrative", but it will also (ii) discourage Novaing while (iii) initiating an imperative for team PC to finesse every combat encounter's power deployment and force-multiplication big guns a bit more.

The point here being that subtle changes to 4e's paradigm will have not insignificant ripple effects on the baked-in thematics and tactical overhead.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I haven't notice the problem with encounter balance at epic that you guys have... though, even if encounter balance shifts from the intended level of challenge, at least class balance seems to be reasonably stable, and, like pemerton you can just up the ante until you're back in the zone (oh, and, coincidence: that'll make advancement speed up, which'd also be more like 5e at high level).

I think part of the issue here is one that is unavoidable. Both hit point and damage progressions start at a point a bit above 0, that is level 1 creatures have around 20ish base hit points, and a damage output of level+8. This means that a level 2 creature is significantly stronger than a level 1 creature, by something like 20%, and a level + 3 creature is MUCH stronger, about 75% stronger than a level 1 creature. Thus at lower levels the relative increase in challenge of higher level creatures is more steep. At 25th level the difference between a level 25 monster and a level 28 monster is a rounding error. Sure, defenses and attack bonuses DO increase strictly linearly and have a linear effect, but everything else pretty much doesn't. Beyond that other aspects of creatures kind of level out as well. There's a big progression between levels 1 and 5 of secondary effects, special attacks, etc that simply isn't reproduced so much at higher levels (there are bumps around levels 11 and 21, but especially the level 21 bump isn't huge).

So, for an Epic DM to produce an effect similar to dropping a level + 5 solo on his level 3 party, he's gotta drop a level + 10 solo encounter, at least. And because the attack/defense bonuses remain stubbornly linear, unlike everything else, he's pretty much gotta do it by piling on more monsters, or using other less scientific tricks like clever tactical problems or something to sink some of the PCs action economy, hostile terrain to drain extra hit points, etc.

The point is, you can't really produce the same math at every level. The only way to really do that would be to simply assume that all variation in challenge is accomplished via changes in number and type of monster, but you never use monsters of more than say +/-1 level from the PCs.

 

[Myrhdraak]

HYBRID SOLUTION

So I went to explore a Hybrid Solution. I looked at two major but yet simple changes:

1. Healing Word: Healing Word heals a lot of damage, which is good in the Single Encounter scenario, as we get a game that works like 4th Edition during the tactical battles. However, if I want to run double or triple encounters before a Short Rest, the ability to use magical healing just becomes too much. So I went in and simulated a change. You do only regain the Healing Word power after a Short Rest, i.e. not after each Encounter. This put some limit to the ability to heal over multiple encounters, i.e. the players are mainly going to use encounter powers for this.
2. Surgeless Healing: I looked into removing Surgeless Healing and only allow healing by the use of Healing Surges. Below is a list of the affected powers. These will work as normal but consume Healing Surges.

Ardent 6 - Mend Wounds - Daily
Ardent 10 - From the Brink - Daily
Ardent 16 - Mental Rejuvenation - Daily
Ardent 19 - Vitality Transfer - Daily
Ardent 2 - Healing Bond - Daily
Ardent 22 - Expedite Healing - Daily
Ardent 25 - Bountiful Portent - Daily
Artificer 10 - Healing Figurine - Daily
Artificer 22 - Cure-All Admixture - Daily
Assassin 22 - Soul of Death - Daily
Avenger 19 - Vengeful Recovery - Daily
Avenger 29 - Fiery Vengeance - Daily
Bard 22 - Ode to the Daring - Daily
Bard 22 - Elegy Unwritten - Daily
Bard 16 - Elegy of the Undefeated - Daily
Catalyst 12 - Serene Mind - Daily
Cleric 22 - Mass Cure Serious Wounds - Daily
Cleric 6 - Cure Serious Wounds - Daily
Cleric 2 - Cure Light Wounds - Daily
Cleric 16 - Cure Critical Wounds - Daily
Cleric 19 - Indomitable Spirit - Daily
Cleric 25 - Life Lanterns - Daily
Cleric 29 - Breath of the Stars - Daily
Cleric 19 - Miraculous Intervention - Daily
Cleric 10 - Battle Surge - Daily
Cleric 19 - Unconquerable Spirit - Daily
Cunning Prevaricator 12 - Trickery's Reward - Encounter
Druid 5 - Life Blood Harvest - Daily
Druid 22 - Touch of Renewal - Daily
Heir of Siberys 26 - Siberys Mark of Healing - Daily
Indomitable Champion 26 - Epic Tenacity - Daily
Invoker 10 - Covenant of Endurance - Daily
Invoker 16 - Covenant of Life - Daily
Miracle Worker 12 - Miraculous Grace - Daily
Multiclass 16 - Healing Flesh of the Infected - Encounter
Paladin 16 - Death Ward - Daily
Paladin 0 - Lay On Hands - At-Will
Paladin 22 - Fateful Cleansing - Daily
Praetor Legate 20 - Dictator's Judgment - Daily
Pyreen 26 - Rejuvenate the Land - Daily
Radiant Serpent 12 - Shining Pass - Daily
Ranger 6 - Invigorate the Beast - Daily
Raven Knight 26 - Dark Scythe - Daily
Runepriest 2 - Shield of Sacrifice - Daily
Runepriest 16 - Rune of Reinvigoration - Daily
Shaman 2 - Spirit of Life - Daily
Shaman 16 - Healing Howl - Daily
Shaman 22 - Natural Rebirth - Encounter
Shaman 19 - Tree Father's Ward - Daily
Skill Power 16 - Miraculous Treatment - Daily
Tactical Warpriest 12 - Battle Favor - Daily
Tiefling Warfiend 12 - Infernal Resurgence - Daily
Voice for the Ravaged 12 - Restorative Wind - Daily
Warden 6 - Bear's Endurance - Daily
Warden 9 - Form of the Stone Sentinel - Daily
Warden 29 - Form of Verdant Growth - Daily
Warlock 25 - Vestige of Vykolad - Daily
Warlord 19 - Exhorted Counterattack - Daily
Warlord 7 - General's Gift Encounter