Changing the sorcerers spellcasting, allow to burn hp for spells

[Sravoff]

basic idea: sorcerers don't get spells slots per day, instead they get "mana point" 1d8 per level + Cha bonus. They get 8+cha at first level. Spells deal damage equal to their level in d4's, except 0 level which does 1d2. This damage can be resisted by making a (concentration???) check. DC=10+2 times the spell level+cha mod, 0 level is dc 11+cha mod. Every five points they beat the dc they may resist 1d4 damage. the d4 is rolled and then the normal damage has that roll subtracted. Like wise for every five points you fall under the dc you take an additional d4 points of damage.

Example: Keebo, a fourth elvel sorcerer has 29 "mana" points. He casts scorching ray. the DC is 16. he rolls his concentration, +8 mod, and get a fourteen. That is a total of twenty two. The spell does 2d4 damge, rolls out to six damage, his d4 from his high con check is three. So Keebo takes three "mana" damage.

Also the sorcerer may try to cast spells he doesn't know from those around him. If he can succedd on a DC 20+spell level of any spell csat he is aware of and can observe, he nmay try to cast the spell himself. However instead of the damage doing "mana" damage it does HP damage.

May need some slight adjusting as to the dc and how many mana points per level.

What do you think?

-Sravoff

 

[Spatzimaus]

I like flexible systems, and IMC we've used a Channeler class for a while now. But really, IMO there are three problems with what you've described:

First, what you've described is a lot of rolling; rolling 9d4 for a big spell, followed by a d20 check, followed by more d4s to reduce the damage, plus the usual saving throw and/or damage dice... it's a lot of dice, and that slows things down. Especially since most people don't have a lot of d4s around, and they're not fun dice to roll.

Second, having a separate "mana pool" means you're basically duplicating the existing Psionics rules, except with more rolling.

Third, you have the spell DC getting HIGHER as your CHA goes up. Encouraging players to NOT raise a stat (especially CHA) is just a bad idea.

IMC, our system was more like this:
> Channeler class: d6 HP, 2+INT skill points, CHA is the stat for spellcasting DC, but INT determines spells known. (Actually, we use 4+INT for skills, but that's because we've added a few extra skills in our campaign. For instance, the Manifestation (CHA) skill replaces caster level for some spell effects, and casters can use a Manifestation skill check instead of the save for some spells.)
> Each spell does 4 points of lethal damage per level (cantrips are 2 points), counting metamagics as levels. You can choose to simply pay this cost, which makes the spell uninterruptible, or you can choose to Channel the spell (see below).
> At each level, you get a certain number of points that are spent buying caster levels in each of the schools of magic. Max caster level = character level. (We use an elemental split, but you could stick with the standard seven schools.) This caster level also applies to any spell effects. Typically, you'll have 1-2 schools maxxed out, and a couple others at a lower level.
> To channel a spell, do a caster level check, with DC 5+spell level (cantrips 0), and you use your caster level in the appropriate school. So, it's d20+(caster level) vs 5+spell level.
> For every point you beat the DC by, 2 points of lethal damage are converted to 1 point of "mental" damage (acts like subdual, but it doesn't heal with cure spells, there's a separate line of spells for that and they don't work instantaneously); once the lethal's all gone, each additional point reduces the mental by 1 (to a minimum of 1 damage). It sounds more complex than it is, really.

Anyway, these systems have one big thing in common: once you get to high levels, you can just sit there and spam low-level spells pretty much nonstop, never really taking drain. This has a HUGE effect on a game world; if you can cast cure light wounds at will (or really, any sort of heal/repair skill, since CLW isn't normally a Sorcerer spell), then the party ends up fully recovered after every fight without expending any resources.
Take your system as example. I get my character to 15th level. He's got a Concentration mod of +18. I want to cast the CLW my Cleric friend knows, so under your system, that's DC 21. I spend 1d4 HP, but since I'll succeed by 7, on average, I then subtract 1d4. Since I'm healing 9.5 damage per cast, on average, even if I roll badly I can just heal myself and come out ahead. Even if you remove the ability to cast healing spells, my 15th level Sorcerer could cast 2nd level Sorcerer spells at will this way; DC 14, succeed by 14, 2d4 minus at least 2d4 means no mana cost. It's bad enough when someone has an at-will spell-like ability, but to be able to do this to ANY first, second, or even third-level spell? It really changes the nature of spellcasting in the world.

If you want to avoid this problem, add a hard minimum, like "you can't reduce the mana cost to less than 1 point per spell level".

 

[Sravoff]

mmm.. I see I see, yes those are rather problematic. hhmm....yeah, quite problematic..

Thanks!

-Sravoff

 

[Spatzimaus]

Well, I didn't want to come off too negative here... even with the problems, I like these flexible sorts of system much more than the "slot" system we all know and love. So, here's some suggestions; mix and match all you want:

1> If you still want to use dice, switch from d4s to d6s. Everyone's got a lot of them around, and they don't plop when you roll them. Up the number of mana per level to d10s or d12s to compensate.
2> Math note: with 1d8 mana per level, but with spell cost scaling with spell level, under your system it'd be VERY hard for a high-end caster to cast more than one or two high-level spells per day. The number of mana per level should scale, IMO; say, for levels 1-5 you get a d6, for levels 6-10 you get a d8, for 11-15 you get a d10, and for 16-20 you get a d12. It should probably be even more pronounced, actually; see the Psion power point tables for a guideline.
3> Instead of every 5 points allowing a d4 reduction (average 2.5), just make it a flat rate: For every 2 points you beat the DC, the cost drops by 1. Same effect, less rolling; you still have randomness when rolling the cost.
4> Concentration's already used heavily, and you wanted to tie CHA into it, so do it as 1d20+caster level+CHA versus a simpler DC (the 10 + 2*level is okay, although you might need to drop it with this change.) That way, you're not quite as skill-locked, you can still use CHA, and the DC scales the right way. Plus, it avoids one other abuse I forgot to mention: if you key it off Concentration skill, then everyone will get an item that gives +10 to Concentration. That'd instantly knock two full spell levels off the cost of every spell. By making it be something other than a skill, this allows you to avoid that. Plus, you can't Take 10 then.
5> Minimum mana cost = 1 point per spell level; no matter how high you roll, there's always a cost.
6> On a natural 1 on the drain check, the spell backfires. You don't reduce the cost, and can't use that spell until the next time you do the hour meditation to recover points (i.e., the next day). (This and #5 shut down the endless strings of CLWs.) On a natural 20, though, the spell is automatically Extended and Empowered, where applicable (throw in a variant of the Wild Magic rules).

Anyway, it's still all workable. But, I'd point out that with Psions and Wilders available, there really isn't a great need for another point-based flexible spellcaster; you could take the existing Psionics system, replace the powers with the Wiz/Sor spell list, and you'd have something close to this. It's not quite so random, but you won't have as many balance headaches as a homemade class gives.

 

[Sravoff]

ya weren't that negative don't woory bout it.

I like that idea, and haven't really got that much to add. I'm going to think about it and post what I find/create.

-Sravoff