Chaos Magic - the review.

[Claude Raines]

Naked men look ridiculous.

Maybe we should get Angelsboi's opinion on this!

 

[bramadan]

Thanks for the comments guys.

It is true that I have not playtested Chaos Magic. My intention was to have it, together with Necromancy and Demonology form a backbone of the the magic system in my new campaign. However I got too scared by the potential balance issues, particularily long term - post level 12ones to give it a try. Now I am in a bit of a problem vis playtesting it because if I do I find it lacking I will have jeopardised the integrity of the setting and do not I will possibly miss on exactly what Ihave been looking for for a while. I will probably find some DM cop-out and will be sure to report when I do.

However I have playtested damage based systems before both house made ones of the net and my own and have so far always found them to be lacking for the reasons simmilar to ones in my review. Bare-bones point is if damage system o oits own does the trick why have mutations. If you have mutations what happends when at 12th level mutations become insignificant ?

Vis the flavour text and "atmosphere" I find them as important in the gaming book as in the fiction because a) I have to read the bugger and b) if I am inspired reading it I am that much more likely to transfer the inspiration into the game. Game mechanic, if elegant, can take a backseat to the inspiration (that is what I like about Demonology - heavy DM controll, very elegant mechanic and lots of atmosphere).

As for the "distinct flavour for the typical fantasy niche" I was refering to giving game-mechanical flavour to already established niche. When I look at mythology and fantasy I find no lack of distict and immensly interesting concepts, traditions and beliefs "old tropes" that could be flashed out in game terms. Creating a brand new tradition (or borrowing one from Games Workshp if that is the case) inevitably has less "feel" for me but this is obviously subjective topic as well. Lets just say that I am realy looking forward to Constructs and Shamans as both of those tackle classical concepts.

As for the babe-at, I like it as much as the next guy when it is. well done. Most of "amazons" and some pictures in C.M. are exceptionaly sexy and thus very pleasing to look at. Gropping skeleton and gropping chaos creature are just (relatively) badly done art, offending even more through their misuse of female body.

However, now that Matthew have admitted to being repressed brit I can ask him something I have had in mind for a while. Would you guys ever think of making "Encyclopaedia Arcane (or Divine): Sex Magic" (name can be made less explicit). The mythological/fantasy base exists, I have had the idea ever since I have been to the ruins of the enormous temple of Aphrodite in Corinth. If handled maturely it can be done without explicitness or profanities and yet with enough punch to be *very* attractive both visualy and in terms of what it adds to the game.
Sure you guys wuld make a splash and would be chewed over half the internet but it can be a double edged sword...

 

[drnuncheon]

Thanks for the comments guys.
However I have playtested damage based systems before both house made ones of the net and my own and have so far always found them to be lacking for the reasons simmilar to ones in my review. Bare-bones point is if damage system on its own does the trick why have mutations. If you have mutations what happends when at 12th level mutations become insignificant ?

You're assuming that the mutations are there for balance. I notice that Mongoose_Matt didn't mention them when discussing the balance of Chaos Mages...

I will note that I personally don't think the effect of mutations are insignificant, even at 12th level. If you keep having to spend XP to back off from your mutations, you're not going to level s quickly as your friends. Plus, you've got all of those penalties to deal with - the paths are generally more negative than positive, wih the possible exception of the Shadows one - I notice that it increases your Charisma, making you a more powerful caster...I will wait on judgement until I've seen it in play, though.

Oddly, you talk about the system lacking flavor, when the Paths of Chaos are a large part of what gives it just that. When I read the final step of the Path of Stone, it not only creeped me out a bit, but also gave me some excellent ideas for legends and atmosphere in my gameworld.

I guess it's all down to different things inspiring different people.

J

 

[Kichwas]

Playtesting: I'm building a Chaos mage to bring into an FR game soon.
He'll be 2nd or 3rd level when I bring him in. I will try to min max it all by giving him a level of cleric as well...

So I'm gunning at an attempt to 'break the system'.

Because I may make this the default form of magic for my own setting. But if I do I will add healing to the list of things they can do, with the caveat that they cannot heal subdual damage and that they heal by converting normal to subdual like in Wheel of Time. And that they cannot use it on themselves. Again like in Wheel of Time...



But anyway...

On another topic:

The Cheesecake art.

We've been this a hundred times. Avalanche crosses a boundry that many people find unacceptable.

I would accept a picture of people having sex with all the details present in it before accepting Avalanche's art.

It's all about context of the cheesecake or beefcake art. Not about the art itself.

At least for most of those with the objection who've posted on the subject. There's only one person in those Avalanche threads who seems to object to cheesecake regardless of context.

I think the marketplace does bear out that in the proper context cheesecake sells. But in the wrong context it harms.

But I haven't done the research. I only see what publishers and retailers post here on the boards.

 

[Kichwas]

Would you guys ever think of making "Encyclopaedia Arcane (or Divine): Sex Magic

It's called Tantric Magic.

I almost joined an order for that years back. But circumstance intervened and I ended up in asia for several years instead. By the time I got back I was no longer pursuing the study of the occult.

They're an interesting lot and I'd love to see or even be involved in a book about them.

But I think most players would be VERY uncomfortable playing in a game with them around. Even if much of history's magical traditions did center around their form of doing things.

The book might sell well; but I can't see many groups actually using it.

 

[Ciaran]

Naked men look ridiculous.

Sez you. I think they look hot. Or at least the attractive ones, and that's what we're talking about, right? I certainly wouldn't want to see pics of Ernest Borgnine, but then, cheesecake pics of Margaret Thatcher probably wouldn't sell well either.

And I think a lot of women will agree with that Women _look_ far better than men, so when it comes to choosing artwork, what do you pick?

When I passed your observations along to my friend Morgan, she gasped and said, "Why, it's true! How could I have been so blind!" Now she's gone off to become a lesbian, because if women are better looking than men, why should she waste her time with the men?

There may not be any beautiful men. Sting tried it in Dune. *Shudder*

Um, dude... Sting is not a beautiful man. Handsome perhaps, but not pretty by any stretch of the imagination. I assume that you're straight and all, but still, get a clue. Just because you only find women attractive doesn't mean that the same applies to the rest of the human race.

- Eric

 

[Zerovoid]

Several of my female friends have said that women are more beautiful than men, despite the functional appeal that the male body has for them. I remember asking one of my friends who draws alot of semi-nude fairies and other fantasy creatures why she draws all those naked women, and she said that she thinks the female form is more aestetic than the male form. I'm sure not all women agree, but it seems like being turned on by a picture and thinking that its beautiful are two different things. I think it might be a general consensus, that sex appeal aside, women look better.

 

[Olive]

i was going to apologise about hijacking the thread, but it seems thats the naked men subject has well and truely hijacked it...

but i do have a question: even tho i haven't used it (tho i might very soon...) i regard demonology as one of my favourite d20 books, just for the ideas and potential it opened up.

but i'm not one of those people, like psion, who canopen up a book and say "hmmm....thats balanced, that isn't". my brain doesn't work like that. so psion, if you are so inclined, would you either email me or post in this thread about what the balance issues are in demonology...it would eb much appreciated!

 

[Psion]

but i'm not one of those people, like psion, who canopen up a book and say "hmmm....thats balanced, that isn't". my brain doesn't work like that. so psion, if you are so inclined, would you either email me or post in this thread about what the balance issues are in demonology...it would eb much appreciated!

Well, I don't say "this looks unbalanced" so much as "this looks like trouble." I don't think I ever said it was unbalanced per se ("I usually reserve that designation for something that is way too giving... like the vigilant in Relics & Rituals). In fact, if you look at my review, I said that it seems very well considered, but I also mentioned that it is very risky -- not just to the PC, but the campaign.

Anyway, for a more exhautive break out of my viewpoint, see Sean Reynold's webpage where he talks about why there is no wild mage in 3e. I don't think that it is as much of a concern as he does, and think that Ryan's wild magic material (in the upcoming Wild Spellcraft) handles wild magic pretty well. But I think that Demonology pushes it more than Ryan's spellcraft rules do. It is too easy for a single lucky or unlucky roll to totally alter the kilter of a game.

In short, I consider Demonology a "use at your own risk" book for the GM. I think Chaos Magic seems much more predictable and consistent, with some of that "random" feel.

 

[Tiefling]

I'm not one for Mongoose's flavor text stuff, myself. In the description of Necromancy, they say something to the effect of "The Necromantic arts are shunned throughout the lands of human, elf and dwarf, it's knowledge hidden and it's practitioners persecuted."

Really? Not in any campaign setting I've read or created so far. Why are you trying to tell me something that is completely dependent on the world when your product isn't a campaign setting, nor setting specific?

In the description of Ships of the Elves, they talk about how the elves are unchallenged masters of the sea, and so on. Ditto for that. It gets on my nerves.