Character Creation Software - Straight Answer Please

[Jan van Leyden]

They're saying that HeroForge and PCGen can't support 4e, that's what they're saying.

Any character gen, free or not, is competition for DDI.

You have to distinguish between software and data. You can not publish software incorporating data taken from the books (or GSL).

You can publish some piece of software that allows you to enter this data, manipulate it produce some PDF or print-out from it.

As long as you don't incorporate actual game rules in your product, you should be save.

Think of PCGen without the (R)SRD but - hopefully! - a decent LST-editor.

Such a software product would be something like a toolset to build your own character generator, not a real, works-from-the-first-minute CG.

---
Huldvoll

Jan van Leyden

 

[Urza]

Jan van Leyden, such software would be a snooze fest if it doesn't have the game mechanics. I and I suspect most people can come up with a pretty looking character sheet of sorts just by typing out character info into MS Word.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Jan van Leyden, such software would be a snooze fest if it doesn't have the game mechanics. I and I suspect most people can come up with a pretty looking character sheet of sorts just by typing out character info into MS Word.

But game mechanics can't be copyrighted, just the description of them. So a software program that uses those mechanics but doesn't reproduce the text of those mechanics should be safe. It is the datasets that the software mechanics interpret that are what would be at issue. If the customer types in the datasets then the software is fine and can interpret those datasets properly.

 

[Greylock]

People seem to think HeroForge violated the OGL. While it sometimes skirted the edge of the rules, the people behind it always did their damnedest to make sure it didn't go astray. You HAD to have the books you referenced in order to get full use of HeroForge. It only listed names of Feats, for instance, not what they meant or did.

 

[dinelendarkstar]

The license is very clear about it: you cannot use the license to publish character generation software, just like you couldn't use the d20 STL to do so. So no logo on your software, in short.

Whether you can do so without the license has the same answer as every other such question in the history of the universe: it falls under normal copyright law, and you'll need to consult a lawyer if you're unsure. Nobody from WotC will give you legal advice on that.

The fan site policy might present a third avennue for doing so, but you'll need to wait and see.

Actually the way the lisence reads is:
5.5 Licensed Products. This License applies solely to Licensed Products as defined in Section 3 and to the specified uses set forth in Section 4. For the avoidance of doubt, and by way of example only, no Licensed Product will (a) include web sites, interactive products, miniatures, or character creators; (b) describe a process for creating a character or applying the effects of experience to a character; (c) use the terms “Core Rules” or “Core Rulebook” or variations thereof on its cover or title, in self-reference or in advertising or marketing thereof; (d) refer to any artwork, imagery or other depiction contained in a Core Rulebook; (e) reprint any material contained in a Core Rulebook except as explicitly provided in Section 4; or (f) be incorporated into another product that is itself not a Licensed Product (such as, by way of example only, a magazine or book compilation).

So the word include is the issue with me. It says a product can't include on it does say it can't be one.

This lisence seems to only deal with book or print publishers. And if I want to take a literal reading of it it seems to say that as long as your print material doesn't include one that nothing in this license stops a non print publisher from making one. This license is very grey in a lot of area's.

And I'm not looking for advice, I would like an answer. Is not Linae the lisencing manager? So her or Scott Rouse should be able to answer this question without beating around the bush. I mean they have piped in on many other threads I would think they could do the same here.

dinelendarkstar

 

[dinelendarkstar]

The license is very clear about it: you cannot use the license to publish character generation software, just like you couldn't use the d20 STL to do so. So no logo on your software, in short.

Whether you can do so without the license has the same answer as every other such question in the history of the universe: it falls under normal copyright law, and you'll need to consult a lawyer if you're unsure. Nobody from WotC will give you legal advice on that.

The fan site policy might present a third avennue for doing so, but you'll need to wait and see.

Actually the way the lisence reads is:
5.5 Licensed Products. This License applies solely to Licensed Products as defined in Section 3 and to the specified uses set forth in Section 4. For the avoidance of doubt, and by way of example only, no Licensed Product will (a) include web sites, interactive products, miniatures, or character creators; (b) describe a process for creating a character or applying the effects of experience to a character; (c) use the terms “Core Rules” or “Core Rulebook” or variations thereof on its cover or title, in self-reference or in advertising or marketing thereof; (d) refer to any artwork, imagery or other depiction contained in a Core Rulebook; (e) reprint any material contained in a Core Rulebook except as explicitly provided in Section 4; or (f) be incorporated into another product that is itself not a Licensed Product (such as, by way of example only, a magazine or book compilation).

So the word include is the issue with me. It says a product can't include one it does say it can't be one.

This lisence seems to only deal with book or print publishers. And if I want to take a literal reading of it it seems to say that as long as your print material doesn't include one that nothing in this license stops a non print publisher from making one. This license is very grey in a lot of area's.

 

[Morrus]

So the word include is the issue with me. It says a product can't include one it does say it can't be one.

This lisence seems to only deal with book or print publishers. And if I want to take a literal reading of it it seems to say that as long as your print material doesn't include one that nothing in this license stops a non print publisher from making one. This license is very grey in a lot of area's.

You are right; Sections 5 and 3 refer to each other!

3 says "use it only for products not forbidden in 5", and 5 says "use only for products allowed in 3".

The bit after "example" with the word include in it is irrelevant - it's just a list of examples.

 

[FormerlyDickensC]

But game mechanics can't be copyrighted, just the description of them. So a software program that uses those mechanics but doesn't reproduce the text of those mechanics should be safe. It is the datasets that the software mechanics interpret that are what would be at issue. If the customer types in the datasets then the software is fine and can interpret those datasets properly.

Yes, that is correct.

Reproducing the underlying logic defined by the rules through (compiled or not compiled) computer code should not normally be a violation of copyright law. However, using descriptive text (ie. powers, feats, classes) and other proper nouns (ie. Cleave, Eladrin Teifling) would be such a violation.

In order to actually do a 4E chargen/combat tracker/campaign-mgr you'd have to build the application with a separate user-editable dataset (serialize some datatables as xml). The dataset would not only define names, descriptive text, and flavor text...it would also have to contain a component defining the logical function of the object (the race, feat, power, etc) through some scripting language along the lines of DMGenie.

So in the app, a basic 4E (but ostensibly - as you'd argue in court - agnostic) framework is setup. Then the specific rules logic used in the game is consumed by the framework from the dataset (although some of the logic is going to be built into the framework, and specifics are left to the objects, like powers and race, in the dataset).

The app could be distributed with a dataset providing all the functionality of the core set of books and objects from the canonical 4E books, but done so using non-4E terms/names/nouns. So you call the eladrin race "celestial high elf" but have the race function exactly as the eladrin. As long as the flavor text doesn't mimic the text from the book, your not violating copyright. Remember the underlying logic of the rules is not copyrightable, only the text describing them. Fair use, really plays no role except to allow the end user to create personal datasets for personal use. Which would be the ostensible purpose and intention of the software...an important point to make not if but when you are taken to court for producing this app.

Further, and more heinously, the software author could leak a clandestine program which edits the provided dataset, replacing all the terms with canonical 4E terms and text...giving the end user a full 4E experience. Of course, the clandestine app would be illegal and one would not want to be tied to it.

Lastly, the bonus of such a design is that it would provide extensibility that everyone so desires in a chargen/combat-tracker. Having said all that, it would be a pretty time-consuming app to build.

Bottom line: you should be ok to make such an app if you don't use key terms from the books. But that's a big should. Ultimately its up to the decider-of-facts when the case goes to court. ...or at least that's what I think. I could be wrong. Use at your own peril.

EDIT: whatever you do, if you plan to make a piece of software to do 4E things, don't EVER sign the GSL agreement. Run from the GSL. GSL strictly forbids software. In making the software, your trying to avoid a copyright violation. Has nothing to do with GSL. GSL is irrelevant to this.