Character development (a very long post)

[Plecak]

Dear all,

My character is a 7-th level cleric with the Strength and War domains.
Race:
- Human.
Stats:
- Str 17 (16 + 1), Dex 14, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 14.
Proficiencies:
- Simple weapons (cleric).
- Glaive (favoured weapon).
- Net and trident (DM).
Equipment:
- Mithral Chain Shirt.
- No armor check penalties (useful when tumbling).
- Speed and mobility in battles.
- Boots that duplicate the effects of the Expeditious Retreat spell once per day.

I would like this character to excel in melee combat.
His combat style will be very simple (clerics do not have many feats to spare) but effective.
Two kinds of feats:
- always useful (for example, Combat Expertise or Improved Initiative).
- important from the role-playing point of view (for example, Combat Casting).
The character pursues divine arts only as much as necessary for effective performance of his duties.

At the moment, I am thinking about two ways of developing this character.

(1) Strength based: invest all level-related stat increases in Strength.

Combat Feats:
- Blind-Fight
- Combat Expertise
- Improved Initiative
- Power Attack
- Superior Expertise.

Spellcasting feats:
- Combat Casting (for the sake of role-playing)
- Reach Spell (for the sake role-playing).

Other feats:
- Able Learner (for the sake role-playing).

Epic Feats:
- Initially:
- Bonus Domain (all domains available)
- Epic Spellcasting
- Improved Combat Casting (for the sake role-playing)
- Superior Initiative
- Later on:
- Epic Prowess - as a cleric bonus feat every three levels (if our DM allows it)
- Great Strength - every three character levels.

Feats that I am considering (for the sake role-playing):
- Defensive Awareness (similar to the ability of the barbarian class)
- Endurance
- Diehard
- Eyes in the Back of Your Head
- Quick Draw
- Run
- I think that all these feats nicely fit a character who has spent his life on battlefields.

The character will probably take two fighter and four ordained champion levels (www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070710).

(2) Charisma based: invest all level-related stat increases in Charisma.

Combat Feats:
- Blind-Fight
- Combat Expertise
- Improved Initiative
- Power Attack
- Superior Expertise.

Divine Feats:
- Divine Might
- Divine Shield
- Divine Vigor
- Extra Turning.

Spellcasting feats:
- Combat Casting (for the sake of role-playing)
- Reach Spell (for the sake role-playing).

Other feats:
- Able Learner (for the sake role-playing).

Epic Feats:
- Initially:
- Bonus Domain (all domains available)
- Epic Spellcasting
- Improved Combat Casting (for the sake role-playing)
- Superior Initiative
- Later on:
- Epic Divine Might
- Epic Divine Vigor
- At the end:
- Epic Prowess - as a cleric bonus feat every three levels (if our DM allows it)
- Great Charisma - every three character levels.

Feats that I am considering (for the sake role-playing):
- Defensive Awareness (similar to the ability of the barbarian class)
- Endurance
- Diehard
- Eyes in the Back of Your Head
- Quick Draw
- Run

The character will probably take two paladin and four ordained champion levels.


In both cases I intend to use the Miracle spell to gain +5 inherent bonus to Wisdom.

The weak point of investing in Strength is that clerics can use Miracle and, later, epic spells to transform into physically powerful creatures like giants or titans.
The weak point of investing in Charisma is that it takes more feats to be effective in combat.

Which way would you suggest? What is better in your opinion.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Animal]

you won't be able to cast miracle because your wisdom is too low. you need 19 wisdom to cast 9 lvl divine spells.
also you shouldn't neglect heavy armour, your dexterity is not that high after all. i don't see how you'll benefit ftom light armour in any of your builds.
i'd also suggest that you take at least 4 fighter levels.

 

[Darklone]

Have a look at the prestige paladin in UA. It'll give you some extra ompfh without lowering your casting abilities too much.

 

[Felix]

I would very much recommend shifting that 16+1 to Con if you're going to spend a lot of time in melee. Many cleric spells can buff your Strength, and after a few rounds of spells you'll be a terror to behold, but 6d8+8 hp (avg 35) isn't going to impress the enemy wizard casting Fireballs.

Keep to straight casting. High level cleric spells will outweigh the short-term benefits of Fighter feats.

Feats for a Cleric are almost ancillary. Your strength is your spells, and the manner in which you use them can suggest which feats to take.

Going to be in the thick of it? Combat Casting isn't a bad choice, though Skill Focus: Concentration is often considered superior.

Going to fight with both hands full? Still Spell will allow you to cast without needing to drop your weapon or shield.

Battles taking a while to end? Extend Spell.

Combat Reflexes will provide you with more attacks with that Glaive that you get when you Righteous Might yourself into Large.

Scribe Scroll will allow you to make your utility spells available so you can leave your spells per day focused on combat. Brew Potion will similarly help your whole party without costing an arm and a leg at the Potion Emporium.​

Feats are a fighter's balliwick. I'd recommend using your feats to augment your strength instead of trying to play catch-up with those every-other-level Fighter Bonus Feats.

 

[Zelc]

Shift it to 14+1 Wis. Your wisdom is absolutely too low . Most melee clerics depend on buffing with (Quickened) Divine Favor, Divine Power, and/or Righteous Might.

 

[Darklone]

Your stats:
Str 17 (16 + 1), Dex 14, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 14.

Better do this for a melee cleric:
Str 17 (16 + 1), Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 14.

First: you'll be able to cast spells. Second: You'll survive more than one round melee with more hp. Third: Clerics don't need Dex.

You might even think about increasing Con even more and lowering Str to 14.

 

[Zelc]

Your stats:
Str 17 (16 + 1), Dex 14, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 14.

Better do this for a melee cleric:
Str 17 (16 + 1), Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 14.

Unless you absolutely prefer melee over spellcasting, Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 17 (16+1), Cha 14 would be a better ability layout. 16 Str is enough with the buff spells you get, and the higher Wisdom gives you more flexibility. The Cleric gets some great spells, and you shouldn't let that go to waste.

By the way, unless you really like melee and don't like spellcasting, I'd go Cleric 20 over getting Fighter and Ordained Champion levels. As a rule of thumb, you shouldn't give up spellcaster levels unless you have a REALLY good reason to do so. With spells like (Quickened) Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might, having more spells will help your melee ability. Plus save-or-die spells and battlefield control spells are much more powerful at higher levels than melee, and even if you prefer melee, it's good to have those spells to fall back on.

For feats, I suggest Extend Spell, Quicken Spell, Power Attack, and Improved Initiative (not in this order). If your DM allows it, Divine Metamagic with either Quicken Spell or Persistant Spell is a strong (if cheesy) pick. Other feats are to taste.

By the way, Combat Casting is not a good feat. Get Skill Focus (Concentration) instead if you want to boost your concentration skill.

 

[Plecak]

Thank you, guys

I do not intend to invest any points in Wisdom at the moment. Periapts of Wisdom should suffice since the character is going to use divine magic to:
- Bolster his allies and weaken his opponents (for example, Bless or Prayer)
- Manipulate battlefields (for example, Darkness or Control Weather)
- Prepare himself or his companions for battle
- Protect those in need
- Yield support to those dying or wounded.
For such spells high Wisdom score is not important because saves are not an issue. I just need a high enough score to be able to cast all spells (including epic ones) and I can get it with Periapt of Wisdom +6.

If our DM allows it, I will get a +5 inherent bonus to Wisdom from the Miracle spell.

 

[Kat']

I do not intend to invest any points in Wisdom at the moment. Periapts of Wisdom should suffice since the character is going to use divine magic to:
- Bolster his allies and weaken his opponents (for example, Bless or Prayer)

You're gonna need high Wis to weaken your opponents, 'cause most debuff spells do allow a save.

- Manipulate battlefields (for example, Darkness or Control Weather)
- Prepare himself or his companions for battle
- Protect those in need
- Yield support to those dying or wounded.

So you're gonna do pretty much everything available for a cleric, except Save-or-dies, which are frankly one of the cleric's most potent weapons. Feels to me like playing a monk, but not fighting with unarmed strikes...
Plus having a high Wis also means you'll get more bonus spells, which is always good for healing (what are you gonna use your low-level slots for anyway?).

For such spells high Wisdom score is not important because saves are not an issue. I just need a high enough score to be able to cast all spells (including epic ones) and I can get it with Periapt of Wisdom +6.

That's a VERY, VERY bad idea, 'cause you're making your spellcasting stat item-dependant. A simple targeted Dispel Magic on your Periapt, or a Chain Dispel on you and your gear (a very, very potent strategy at high levels) will mean that you can't cast your high-level spells. Plus there are Shatter spells, Mordenkainen's Disjunction, thieves in the middle of the night and so on. Being stuck with 4th level spells at ECL 17+ when you're a primary caster is very bad, trust me.

If our DM allows it, I will get a +5 inherent bonus to Wisdom from the Miracle spell.

That would be Wish, which is, unfortunately, an arcane spell. Miracle doesn't allow stat boosting.

So I'd agree with Zelc that a better stat dispersion would be:
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 17 (16+1), Cha 14, and pump up Wis until you at least get 19 unmodified and place the rest into Str. At level 20, you'd have Str 18 and Wis 19. With the right spell selection, that's perfect for melee.

By the way, if you want serious melee damage you're gonna need Power Attack, and most important, Quicken Spell. Quicken Spell means that you can cast Quicken Divine Power and Righteous Might in the same round, and Quicken Divine Power and attack in the second (you already cast Greater Magic Weapon this morning, remember?). This spell combination will grant you a total of +10 Str, damage reduction 9/evil, a fighter's BAB, awesome To Hit and damage and 10' reach with a 1-h weapon. Not bad, huh? For even more cheese, go Extend Spell and Permanent Spell so you can make a few spells of level 3 or lower permanent each day. Choose among Divine Favor, Magic Circle against whatever, Prayer, Aid, Elation (BoED), Detect something, Vigor, Blindsight, Lesser Visage of the Deity...

 

[Zelc]

Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 17 (16+1), Cha 14, and pump up Wis until you at least get 19 unmodified and place the rest into Str. At level 20, you'd have Str 18 and Wis 19. With the right spell selection, that's perfect for melee.

Well, I'd advise you to put all your level up stat increases in Wisdom. The +1 attack and +2 damage (you are holding your weapon 2-handed, right?) isn't worth the loss of a +1 DC and more bonus spells. You want your bonus spells.