Character with Reach or Reach Weapons - What are your thoughts?

[Olaf the Stout]

Last night I experienced what can happen to low-level baddies when 2 characters have 10ft. reach. It wasn't pretty that's for sure. One character was an enlarged Cleric with Cleave wielding a greatsword (3d6 + Strength bonus damage) while the other character was a Barbarian/Rogue with Combat Reflexes and wielding a spiked chain.

The party controlled the battlefield very well, forcing the baddies that wanted to attack the party to go through the Cleric and Barbarian/Rogue's threatened areas. The fact that they didn't have any ranged weapons didn't help the situation. In the end the 2 of them (with ranged support from a bow specialized Fighter and a casting Sorcerer and Cleric) turned the area around their feet into a killing field. 2 waves of 10 3rd level Cultists (Freeport NPC class) attacked the party (5 5th level PC's) dealing out a grand total of 1 point of damage. My incredibly bad rolling didn't help matters (I couldn't roll above 10). About half the Cultists got 1 attack in before they were cut down. The rest were either killed from range or taken down by AoO (and then Cleave) from the 2 characters with reach.

So what has been your experience with reach? I think that this may be an extreme example since the PC's had control of the battlefield, the attackers had no ranged weapons and I couldn't roll to save my life. I can see though how a high Dex character with Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon could really take down lots of low-level bad guys without too much trouble. Throw in Cleave or Great Cleave and they might not ever get an attack in.

I imagine that at least one person will chime in to say that the spiked chain is full of cheese.

Olaf the Stout

 

[MerricB]

I imagine that at least one person will chime in to say that the spiked chain is full of cheese.

The spiked chain is full of cheese. Now, that's out of the way, we can discuss the issue of reach!

So what has been your experience with reach? I think that this may be an extreme example since the PC's had control of the battlefield, the attackers had no ranged weapons and I couldn't roll to save my life. I can see though how a high Dex character with Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon could really take down lots of low-level bad guys without too much trouble. Throw in Cleave or Great Cleave and they might not ever get an attack in.

I agree - that was an extreme example. Of course, a couple of fireballs from that party may have had a similar effect.

In general, Cleave + Great Cleave aren't that great, nor is reach. The combination only really works against lots of low-level melee mooks, so it's really nice when it comes off! Far more often, the monsters don't go down to a single hit. Then too, you can't make Attacks of Opportunity through other combatants (soft cover prevents AoOs with reach weapons), so assuming that someone has managed to survive to get in base contact, then others can approach behind them and negate the bonuses of reach.

Cheers!

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Then too, you can't make Attacks of Opportunity through other combatants (soft cover prevents AoOs with reach weapons), so assuming that someone has managed to survive to get in base contact, then others can approach behind them and negate the bonuses of reach.

Even basing isn't required, because the AoO is triggered on leaving a square. So one cultist simply moves to 10 feet away from the melee giants, and two or three other cultists funnel through him to base ... all without taking AoOs. Kinda cheesy, but then, so is the spiked chain! It's actually possible, using this tactic, to completely surround a character with reach without taking a single AoO.

Oh, and don't forget Tumbling. Tumbling by RAW makes it very easy to avoid AoOs for those characters with access to the skill.

I'm getting ready to start Age of Worms (as a player) with a half-ogre PC, so I hope my DM doesn't see this thread.

 

[Crust]

I allow the half-orc chain fighter in my group to make use of reach, combat reflexes, and improved trip to knock out as many as three charging foes when the situation presents itself. He has the option of enacting combat expertise and/or power attack whilst "chaining" foes who get too close. Very versatile (especially with a rogue tumbling and diving on prone foes for the sneak). Of course, he's often had to drop his chains and yank out his falchion as back up after a failed strength check.

Whether the combat expertise/AoO/trips are allowed by the RAW, I'm not certain beyond the description of Trip in the PHB. I think it's cool, though hardly a guaranteed success in every situation. It really only works best against fodder enemies who'd get mopped up anyway, chains or no, making such encounters shorter and cooler.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Even basing isn't required, because the AoO is triggered on leaving a square. So one cultist simply moves to 10 feet away from the melee giants, and two or three other cultists funnel through him to base ... all without taking AoOs.

How do they get from 10 feet to 5 feet?

Either they have to go through a square ten feet from the giant that their ally isn't in, or they have to go through a square ten feet from the giant that their ally is in, and either way, they don't have soft cover when they move the last five feet...

Moving through a Square
Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn’t provide you with cover.

You need to get at least one cultist to within five feet before you can start getting others five feet away without provoking, and unless he's Tumbling, 5-foot-stepping, or Spring Attacking, that first cultist will likely wear an AoO.

... which is pretty much what Merric said

-Hyp.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

The spiked chain is full of cheese. Now, that's out of the way, we can discuss the issue of reach!



I agree - that was an extreme example. Of course, a couple of fireballs from that party may have had a similar effect.

In general, Cleave + Great Cleave aren't that great, nor is reach. The combination only really works against lots of low-level melee mooks, so it's really nice when it comes off! Far more often, the monsters don't go down to a single hit. Then too, you can't make Attacks of Opportunity through other combatants (soft cover prevents AoOs with reach weapons), so assuming that someone has managed to survive to get in base contact, then others can approach behind them and negate the bonuses of reach.

Cheers!

Ok then. What happens if all 10 mooks are moving on the same initiative? Do the ones moving behind the front ones get cover and therefore avoid attacks of opportunities? Or should I move them one at a time and only let them avoid the AoO if someone in front of them manages to make it through the gauntlet without getting killed?

Does what I just wrote make sense? I'm not sure if everyone gives all their low-level mooks the one initiative or if they all get seperate ones. I find it simpler to give them all the same initiative and move them all together at the same time.

Olaf the Stout

 

[MerricB]

Ok then. What happens if all 10 mooks are moving on the same initiative? Do the ones moving behind the front ones get cover and therefore avoid attacks of opportunities? Or should I move them one at a time and only let them avoid the AoO if someone in front of them manages to make it through the gauntlet without getting killed?

I move them one at a time, on the same initiative.

They can avoid the AoO if someone manages to make it through the gauntlet without being killed. However, if you had 10 mooks, then, unless the PCs have Combat Reflexes and really good Dex scores, then you should get most of them through.

(Remember, the PC only has to miss once and then the barrier is down!)

Cheers!

 

[Olaf the Stout]

I move them one at a time, on the same initiative.

They can avoid the AoO if someone manages to make it through the gauntlet without being killed. However, if you had 10 mooks, then, unless the PCs have Combat Reflexes and really good Dex scores, then you should get most of them through. A character can only make one AoO per round unless they have Combat Reflexes.

Cheers!

I see now where moving them all at once made things a little easier on the PC's. By moving them all at once it meant that if the PC's killed one of the mooks with their AoO, they could then Cleave/Great Cleave into the mook standing next to him. If I moved them one at a time the PC's wouldn't have been able to Cleave/Great Cleave.

One of the characters in question has Combat Reflexes and a +3 Dex modifier. That means up to 4 AoO per round. The other character used a Greatsword and was buffed with Enlarge Person and Bull's Strength on top of his normal Strength score of 16. Combine those 2 with low-level mooks, good attack and damage rolls and Cleave and you can see why it was such a massacre.

The way I moved the characters and missed the fact that cover negated AoO just made it worse!

Olaf the Stout

 

[Olaf the Stout]

(Remember, the PC only has to miss once and then the barrier is down!)

Unfortunately, in this particular battle the PC's didn't seem to miss much at all. The mooks did have a relatively low AC which didn't help. All the damage rolls seemed to be really high as well. It was just one of those nights I guess.

Olaf the Stout