Characters defined by "their stuff"

[diaglo]

...and the brass serpent.

i think you meant brass monkey or maybe i'm listening to too much Beastie Boys.


what about the Apple/fruit Eve offered Adam?

or Adam's Rib for that matter since you brought up Vecna....man is eternally trying to get a piece of himself back.

 

[Henry]

Anyway, not trying to stray too far into minutiae, my main point is that characters being defined in part by signature items is nothing new, and is a literary vehicle that is millenia old. Let's go back to Athena and her Aegis, or even Jason and the Golden Fleece - there's nothing unheroic or undramatic in the concept.

 

[Vurt]

What's the FIRST thing that most gamers think of, when they hear the name "Vecna?"

Why, the Head of Vecna, of course!

EDIT: But if nothing else, I think the story only serves to prove the point.

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[WizarDru]

For the record, I don't think that I'd describe 25,000 gp worth of gems per casting as 'nothing', even to a 17th level party. And unless you've got two party clerics, you could be in a buttload of pain if the holy roller is one of the one's to get himself killed.

Death can be as much of an inconvienence as the DM desires.

I agree with Henry, but I think the point that should be made isn't that characters being associated with their stuff is the problem...it's that characters, by default, keep changing the stuff they are associated with.

Merlin: "What Ho, Arthur? Make Ready! Yon Evil Knight awaits!"

Arthur: "Indeed! Have at you, vainglorious fool! For CAMELOT!!"

[sounds of battle ensue, sword ringing upon sword,...finally, an agonized scream]

Merlin: "Well done, Arthur! The foe is vanquished. Now, let us.....um....Arthur?"

Arthur: "Yes, Merlin? Speak your mind. You seem troubled."

Merlin: "I see you placing noble Excalibur in your rucksack, my King. And now you wield that blackened blade instead of the sword of Kings?!?"

Arthur: "Indeed, old friend. Excalibur has served me well, but yon blade is a +3 Flaming Burst Wounding Long Sword.....far better than Excalibur's mere +1 Keen qualities. Perhaps I can sell it at Camelot for a goodly sum."

Merlin: (sigh).


Leveling systems like those hong mentions and some of the solutions in Dragon magazine and Unearthed Arcana can address such issues.

 

[Henry]

I agree with Henry, but I think the point that should be made isn't that characters being associated with their stuff is the problem...it's that characters, by default, keep changing the stuff they are associated with.

I agree this can be disconcerting, which is why I enjoy the "Swords of our fathers" rules from Game Mechanics (which I notice are reprinted in Unearthed Arcana).

 

[Mercule]

What's the FIRST thing that most gamers think of, when they hear the name "Vecna?"

The Head of Vecna?
edit: Doh! Beaten to the punch.

Seriously, I actually think of Vecna himself with the hand and eye being outgrowths of that. I'm pretty sure, though, that it wasn't so before spending the last four years gaming in Greyhawk and becoming accustomed to the idea that Vecna is a major deity.

What I want to know is what item does Raistlin possess? Wracking my brain, I think it's the Staff of Magus, but that's a guess. He's definitely a character defined by his own merits (or lack thereof). Of course, I never could stand the character, so I never paid much attension.

That all said, I agree that having one or two signature items is no big deal, maybe even a good thing. It there are a lot of items, though, the magical becomes mundane.

 

[wally]

I see people making references to heros of myth and legend, but I haven't heard one legend yet that was similar to what most (don't read too much into that) D&D characters end up like. A character of legend can be defined by the weapon he wields, or item he carries, but D&D characters aren't just a weapon or a strange item.

Most of the characters I end up seeing played at shops or in other peoples games are the following:

One to three powerful weapons, a pair of boots, two rings, a cloak, a suit of armor or magical robes, a hat or headband, bracers or gloves and so on....

I don't have a problem with characters who have a powerful item and who is using it, but when the whole purpose of the character is lots and lots of powerful items and they have something for every occasion, it gets to a point where there isn't a character anymore. There is just a pile of magic items.

Don't take this as a flame or as what the game is, it is just my experience in what I have seen. When you have those, and the group loses all magic items, then you have a group that doesn't know what to do.

wally

 

[Steverooo]

Not only do characters change their stuffs, but they kinda have to! At first level, pretty much no one can afford chainmail, let alone anything better... Forget fullplate or a mithril shirt!

As you rise in level, you can start accumulating better gear, and by somewhere in the range of 3rd - 5th, maybe have what you want... IF you have the proficiencies to use it!

Yep, 3.5e defines characters by their stuff, but then, the stereotypical Knight-in-Shining-Armor, without the armor, sword, horse, nor lance, is pretty much defined by his LACK of stuff, anyway! While the Mutants and Masterminds solutions offered help, I don't think that any of them really solve this...

IS there a solution? Probably, there are MANY PARTIAL ones.

 

[Gothmog]

I see people making references to heros of myth and legend, but I haven't heard one legend yet that was similar to what most (don't read too much into that) D&D characters end up like. A character of legend can be defined by the weapon he wields, or item he carries, but D&D characters aren't just a weapon or a strange item.

Most of the characters I end up seeing played at shops or in other peoples games are the following:

One to three powerful weapons, a pair of boots, two rings, a cloak, a suit of armor or magical robes, a hat or headband, bracers or gloves and so on....

I don't have a problem with characters who have a powerful item and who is using it, but when the whole purpose of the character is lots and lots of powerful items and they have something for every occasion, it gets to a point where there isn't a character anymore. There is just a pile of magic items.

Don't take this as a flame or as what the game is, it is just my experience in what I have seen. When you have those, and the group loses all magic items, then you have a group that doesn't know what to do.

wally

Very good point Wally, and one I was about ready to state, but you beat me to the punch. Yes, while some mythological characters were identified by a powerful artifact, they were not walking piles of magical gadgets like D&D characters. And I think that is what most folks who don't like the characters=items problem object to. Magic items should be something special and valuable, not something that is ASSUMED to be possessed by characters. D&D doesn't have any mythological or legendary flavor to it now (although its based on them), but instead has carved out its own genre of magic-happy looters and pillagers. In that sense, the rules encourage PCs to gather as many magic items as quickly as they can, while neglecting the personality of the character himself. Its become much more about the cool powerups a character can get and much less about how the character fits into and interacts with the world.

 

[MerricB]

What I want to know is what item does Raistlin possess?

The Staff of Magius and the Dragonorb.

In D&D (all editions), Fighters are the class that really are defined by their items. This is most apparent in oD&D and 1E. By the time 2E rolled around, NWPs allowed some more definition, but they were so unimportant to the game that they didn't really add anything. Weapon Specialisation also helped to some extent.

The development of fighting styles in The Complete Fighter's Handbook continued the trend that eventually led to how we have fighters in 3.5E: where their feats and prestige classes give them more distinction, and, especially, greater effectiveness at higher levels.

However, their primary weapon is still is tremendously important.

Rogues have the same problem as fighters to a lesser extent. Clerics and Wizards can get away without having many magic items because of their spellcasting abilities.

You can eliminate the fighter's items being so tremendously important if you eliminate high-level magic-users (or high level spells). If the highest level wizard is 5th level, then the gap between their abilities and the fighter's isn't as big.

However, at that stage you're playing something I no longer consider to be Dungeons and Dragons - where are the powerful wizards that are so much part of its appeal?

Cheers!