Charismatic Corpses?

[Dagredhel]

I don't understand why intelligent undead (as opposed to skeletons and zombies) seem to have good or better charisma scores. Sure, with vampires it makes sense, given the tendency to glamorize/romanticize them, and the game-mechanical consideration that their powers are Cha-based. But why would a ghoul or ghast have a high Cha? I just don't get it, and I would appreciate any opinions, comments, or explanations. Thanks.

 

[Shazman]

Charisma isn't just looks or charm. It's also force of personality. Basically, it measures how strong of an impression you can make on others, good or bad. A ghoul may not be pretty, but seeing one is probably something you won't forget.

 

[jgsugden]

Charisma is force of will. It is not glamor, beauty or likability.

It seems that death brings about a single minded focus that makes your will stronger.

 

[Dagredhel]

Charisma isn't just looks or charm. It's also force of personality. Basically, it measures how strong of an impression you can make on others, good or bad. A ghoul may not be pretty, but seeing one is probably something you won't forget.

By analogy, large animals should also have high Cha scores--- they are imposing. But animals have low scores. I agree that a ghoul is intimidating, which would seemingly be better represented by a modifier to such checks, were it not for the fact that a ghoul is probably just going to try to eat you, rather than to frighten you first?

 

[Dagredhel]

Charisma is force of will. It is not glamor, beauty or likability.

It seems that death brings about a single minded focus that makes your will stronger.

From the SRD:

"Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness."


"Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition."

A forceful personality and great willpower are two different things, the former represented by Cha, the later by Wis.

 

[jgsugden]

From the SRD:

"Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness."

"Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition."

A forceful personality and great willpower are two different things, the former represented by Cha, the later by Wis.

I should have said, makes your force of will stronger. Undead are all about the force of personality. They don't have to bother with the issues that plague the living and detrack from their single minded pursuits ... which makes their personality more direct and powerful.

Fiction is ripe with undead creatures that seem much more powerful (ie; threatening, worth of fearful respect) after their death. This charisma bonus is made to reflect that change.

You may not like the idea, but that is the line upon which the designers were probably thinking.

 

[Spatula]

Charisma is your ability to project your mental will onto others. Your mental strength, if you will. Instead of weapons, the charismatic 'fighter' uses persuasiveness, guile, and/or terror to manipulate others.

Wisdom is your ability to resist the will of others, through willpower, sense of self, and/or perceptiveness.

 

[exempt]

Fuel on the fire... so how is Wisdom different from Charisma? Why not make Will saves cith the Cha mod? If someone tries to Charm you, why not make a Cha-based save since it's your personality theyre assaulting? I understand Wis also accounts for insight and maybe introspection which Cha may not, but really shouldn't some Wis saves be Cha's?

Wow... I have been playing for >15 years, and thought I knew the difference until I read this thread. Now I don't know. Good, simple thread.

 

[Vysirez]

Fuel on the fire... so how is Wisdom different from Charisma? Why not make Will saves cith the Cha mod? If someone tries to Charm you, why not make a Cha-based save since it's your personality theyre assaulting? I understand Wis also accounts for insight and maybe introspection which Cha may not, but really shouldn't some Wis saves be Cha's?

Wow... I have been playing for >15 years, and thought I knew the difference until I read this thread. Now I don't know. Good, simple thread.

Easiest way I have found to look at it is to translate the mental stats to physical ones. Cha is your mental Str. Int is your mental Dex, and Wis is your mental Con. That is somewhat simplistic but it's the best way to make an initial judgement call.

I view Charisma as the ability to push your will and your viewpoint outside your self. Wisdom and Charisma are kinda two sides of a coin. I think of Charisma as the external expression of your will, and Wisdom at the internal expression of your will. That is why you use wisdom for Will saves.

 

[Olive]

Fuel on the fire... so how is Wisdom different from Charisma? Why not make Will saves cith the Cha mod? If someone tries to Charm you, why not make a Cha-based save since it's your personality theyre assaulting? I understand Wis also accounts for insight and maybe introspection which Cha may not, but really shouldn't some Wis saves be Cha's?

Wow... I have been playing for >15 years, and thought I knew the difference until I read this thread. Now I don't know. Good, simple thread.

Like Vysirez says, Cha is your external will. Wis is your internal will. So affecting other people is based on Cha, being affected by others is Wis. You bluff with Cha and try to avoid being bluffed (sense motive) with Wis.

Pretty simple I think.