Charles Ryan on the Sacred Cows of D&D

[WizarDru]

At 20th-level, Magic Missile is doing 5d4+5, or an average of (if my poor math doesn't fail me,) 15 points of damage. I'm sorry, but whether it's an average of 3.5 points damage at 1st-level or 15 points of damage at 20th, I can't see how that's unbalanced.

Well, like I said, I think it's just fine. Dandy, even. My point was just that I could see how some folks might interpert it as being strong without being completely unreasonable. However, MM has plenty of drawbacks, as you note. After 9th level, it stops dead in it's tracks. Heck, by the time fireball is on the scene, it's outclassed for most uses...but it doesn't become truly useless until 11th level or so...it just diminishes over time. I'm pretty sure the original point was that some folks felt it was strong for a 1st-level caster using a 1st-level spell.

From a game design standpoint, you have to factor in that the average damage of that half-orc is tempered by his chance to miss. And at first level, he's missing an AC13, what 50% of the time? I'm not sure...but at a low-level like that, it stands out more to the nattering nabobs of negativism. Some folks can't handle it when the mage can match another class using magic. Some folks are silly.

 

[johnsemlak]

Fireballs and Lightning Bolts were extremely dangerous to use in confined spaces. !

I just cast lightning bolt in my last session. I remarked how I missed using the ricochet lightning bolt to deadly effect

 

[Orius]

MM didn't exist in OD&D.

No magic missile in OD&D? Blecchhh. I think I'll pass on playing that.

 

[diaglo]

No magic missile in OD&D? Blecchhh. I think I'll pass on playing that.

there was the rule to create/research your own spells. which still exists in D&D today. that rule has changed mechanically with each edition but the premise hasn't.

if you don't find a spell. make one.

in OD&D. clerics could research spells too.

 

[WizarDru]

there was the rule to create/research your own spells. which still exists in D&D today. that rule has changed mechanically with each edition but the premise hasn't.

if you don't find a spell. make one.

in OD&D. clerics could research spells too.

In Soviet Russia, Spells researched YOU.

 

[Tzarevitch]

OK, I'm confused. So is it basically just something where you are allowed to take a level of something else? So would you then be a Cleric 6/Dwarven Cleric 1? I don't understand the reason behind being able to only take it at a certain level. Then again, I am commenting on something I haven't even seen yet.

No. It is not a separate class. You would be cleric 7, not cleric 6/ dwarven cleric 1. All the substitutions allow you to do is permanently swap out an ability you would get at a certain level for a specific other choice at that same level. In most cases all other abilities you get at that class level remain the same. They are intended to promote customization of classes to a setting ideal (the planar substitution levels in Planar Handbook for planar campaigns like Planescape) or to a racial ideal (see all of the Races of _____) so you can play a dwarven axe-master like Gimli.

Tzarevitch

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Well, like I said, I think it's just fine. Dandy, even. My point was just that I could see how some folks might interpert it as being strong without being completely unreasonable.

I understand. But since you seem to be playing the Devil's advocate, I'm responding with the reasons why the Devil's advocate arguments aren't persuasive to me.

From a game design standpoint, you have to factor in that the average damage of that half-orc is tempered by his chance to miss. And at first level, he's missing an AC13, what 50% of the time?

Yes, I understand that. But it balances out. If the half-orc hits, he kills the orc with average damage. If the wizard rolls good damage on his Magic Missile, he too kills the orc. Each class has one given factor (to hit for the mage, damage for the half-orc,) and one factor that requires a good roll (to hit for the half-orc, damage for the mage). Except, again, that the mage can only do his schtick twice, while the half-orc can do it again and again and again. So I don't see where the idea that Magic Missile is too good (at 1st character-level) is coming from. And as we have both noted, at higher levels its hardly overwhelming.

Some folks can't handle it when the mage can match another class using magic. Some folks are silly.

So the very fact that it is balanced with the half-orc...makes it unbalanced with the half-orc. :\

You're right. Some folks are silly.

 

[GSHamster]

Magic Missile is not unbalanced against the half-orc. It's unbalanced against other 1st level spells. What other 1st level spell would you take over it (for general combat)?

In general, if one spell is always picked (*cough*3.0 Haste*cough*) it's a good sign that it's unbalanced. (Or possibly that the other spells need to be increased in power.)

 

[Acid_crash]

I don't know what Mr. Ryan is smoking but it must be good.

I'd like him to try and take out alignments and vancian magic and see the outburst loyal D&D gamers would have because those two sacred cows were suddenly no longer a part of D&D. I know many people who would claim it to no longer be D&D at all if one of those two were taken out.

If he says there are no sacred cows, he must be looking at a different game altogether, because D&D has more than any other game that exists.

Magic Missle at first level that always hits
Fireball at third level that goes BOOM
Fire and Forget magic
Alignments
Weak wizards until 5th level, then they are the center of the group

stuff like that...

 

[MerricB]

I'd like him to try and take out alignments and vancian magic and see the outburst loyal D&D gamers would have because those two sacred cows were suddenly no longer a part of D&D. I know many people who would claim it to no longer be D&D at all if one of those two were taken out.

So what? Back in, oh, 2000, there was this company that radically redesigned the most popular RPG ever. Many people said that it was no longer the game they knew... oh wait, that's D&D and Wizards.

(If alignment was actually removed from D&D, I wonder how many people would notice?)

Gamers' perceptions of good games change with the years. What was good design in 1974 may no longer be good design in 2005.

In fact, Vancian Magic is no longer the only form of magic in D&D. The sorcerer does not use Vancian magic. The role of Vancian magic with the cleric has been reduced (due to spontaneous healing).

Charles Ryan understands something extremely fundamental: things can change.

It is more than that: things shouldn't change just because you want change, but neither should things remain constant just because they have always been that way.

Always evaluate what the gaming population actually wants. I doubt very much that Wizards will get rid of Vancian Magic... however, they're not going to close off that avenue if such will actually improve the game.