Charm Person questions. Experienced players needed.

[Ab0b0]

I've read the description of charm person and the chapter about magic in the PHB 3.5 multiple times but I still had trouble trying to figure out what to do. Here was my situation:

A party of 3 1st level characters were fighting a harpy who attempted to charm all 3 while flying. The published adventure I was using had said that the harpy's charm effect was a spell-like ability that mimicked the spell, charm person. 2 PCs made the save while 1 failed (a dwarf with no missile weapons) and the book said that a character cannot be made to attack his friends without the caster winning an opposed CHA check.

This is where the problems started (luckily, the harpy never successfuly won the check):

1. If the harpy had won the CHA check, would the dwarf have continued to attack until the spell was broken or would he only have attacked once? Would he have gotten to make another check?

2. Since casting charm person as a spell-like ability takes a standard action, what kind of action would commanding the dwarf to attack have counted as? Would the command have had to have been given more than once? If more than 1 character were charmed could they all have been commanded as one action?

3. Since the spell's description had stated that it changed a character's status to helpful toward the caster, and presumably the charmed character also would have had helpful status toward the other PCs, would the other PCs have been able to attempt a CHA check to get the charmed character to have attacked the harpy?

4. If the harpy had henchmen would the Dwarf have been able to attack them? What if the harpy had ordered him not to?

5. Would seeing the harpy attack, or even just threaten, the other PC's have affected the dwarf's CHA check? What if the harpy had henchmen would they have influenced the dwarf if these henchmen were to have attacked the other PCs?

6. If the harpy had failed the CHA check could the dwarf have just run away so that it wouldn't have had to attack any of his friends, since he had considered the PCs and now the harpy as his friends?

Anyway, after the harpy landed it attacked the other 2 PCs, trying in vain to get the dwarf to help [she lost every(approx.4) opposed check] until they killed the harpy ending the spell. The whole time the dwarf did nothing but get confused watching his friends fight with his new friend(the harpy).

I really wish there was some more explanation in the PHB. If anyone has any official answers, or even some well thought out house rules, they will be much apppreciated.

Thanks,
Bill

 

[FireLance]

First off, are you using a standard 3.5e harpy? A standard 3.5e harpy does not actually have the ability to charm others with its song. It has the captivating song ability instead:

Captivating Song (Su): The most insidious ability of the harpy is its song. When a harpy sings, all creatures (other than harpies) within a 300-foot spread must succeed on a DC 16 Will save or become captivated. This is a sonic mind-affecting charm effect. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same harpy’s song for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.
A captivated victim walks toward the harpy, taking the most direct route available. If the path leads into a dangerous area (through flame, off a cliff, or the like), that creature gets a second saving throw. Captivated creatures can take no actions other than to defend themselves. (Thus, a fighter cannot run away or attack but takes no defensive penalties.) A victim within 5 feet of the harpy stands there and offers no resistance to the monster’s attacks. The effect continues for as long as the harpy sings and for 1 round thereafter. A bard’s countersong ability allows the captivated creature to attempt a new Will save.

However, for general adjudication of the charm ability, the best rule-of-thumb is, imagine what you would do if two good friends of yours started fighting. With that in mind (all replies in my opinion only):

1. If the harpy had won the CHA check, would the dwarf have continued to attack until the spell was broken or would he only have attacked once? Would he have gotten to make another check?

If the harpy had succeeded at the Charisma check, the dwarf would continue attacking until the spell was broken.

2. Since casting charm person as a spell-like ability takes a standard action, what kind of action would commanding the dwarf to attack have counted as? Would the command have had to have been given more than once? If more than 1 character were charmed could they all have been commanded as one action?

Generally, a simple command ("Kill them!") is a free action. A more complicated command could be a move action - DM's judgement what is "more complicated". Another good rule of thumb is that anything that requires a Charisma check is a move action (like handling an animal trained to do a trick) because of the need to do extra persuasion.

3. Since the spell's description had stated that it changed a character's status to helpful toward the caster, and presumably the charmed character also would have had helpful status toward the other PCs, would the other PCs have been able to attempt a CHA check to get the charmed character to have attacked the harpy?

No, because of the magical influence of the charm.

4. If the harpy had henchmen would the Dwarf have been able to attack them? What if the harpy had ordered him not to?

Yes, charm markes the dwarf only friendly to the harpy. If commanded not to, the harpy may have to succeed at an opposed Charisma check if attacking the henchmen is something the dwarf would normally do.

5. Would seeing the harpy attack, or even just threaten, the other PC's have affected the dwarf's CHA check? What if the harpy had henchmen would they have influenced the dwarf if these henchmen were to have attacked the other PCs?

I would give the dwarf a +5 bonus on his saving throw as per the spell Charm Person. If the henchmen attacked the other PCs, the dwarf would probably want to attack them back and the harpy would have to succeed at an opposed Charisma check to get the dwarf to stop.

6. If the harpy had failed the CHA check could the dwarf have just run away so that it wouldn't have had to attack any of his friends, since he had considered the PCs and now the harpy as his friends?

If this is in character for the PC, why not? However, it is more likely that an adventurer would take action to solve the problem, e.g. yelling at both sides to stop fighting, forcibly separating the combatants, etc.

 

[The Souljourner]

Just a quick point, putting "Experienced players only" in the title is likely to get you a lot fewer responses than you otherwise would. Not because we're lacking experience players (quite the contrary), but rather because it sounds elitist.

Charm person is one of those really grey spells that requires a lot of DM adjudication. There's a reason why there aren't a lot of rules in the PHB about it - you kinda have to wing it. The long and the short of it is, telling someone to do something is a free action, which is all the charmer has to do. The target of the charm should act as if the charmer is his all time best friend.

-The Souljourner

 

[DarkMaster]

Or think about a new lover. When I was younger, and most of my friends we're single, a lot of my best friends at the time did very stupid things against me or others common friends because of their new girlfriend. So I wouldn't be surprise to see a highly charismatic caster convincing the charmed dwarf that his old friends shouldn't continue to live because they are menacing their "relationship".

 

[DreamChaser]

I always require my players to be creative with charm spells and I require the same thing of myself.

Charm is not control it is influence. If a person is charmed by you, you suddenly become vitally important to them, likely to the exclusion of other things, but simply shouting orders at the charmed one (ha ha! Aaron Spelling) is mostly likely going to generate hurt feelings and inaction.

The charming harpy would, IMC, need to make the act of attacking the party seem reasonable and critical. Screaming and crying for help as his friends "attacked her out of jealousy" would probably do it. Even then, there is no reason (barring hidden anomosity) that the dwarf would attack with the intent to kill. He would attempt to stop his friends from hurting his new stinky feathered girlfriend, only drawing blood if no other path was available. But he would need more work to let her kill them.

In system terms, I make it a Bluff check vs a Sense Motive check when the charmer tries to get the charmed one (ha ha! Alyssa Milano) to do something ususual or extreme. Depending upon how well the charmer describes the situation, a circumstance bonus +2 or +4 could be levied but if the description is just "kill them" I would likely penalized the charmer by up to -4.

The best way, IME, to deal with charm spells is by thinking of them as facilitating the use of many social skills.

DC

 

[Ab0b0]

Good replies, keep em' coming.

Thanks for all the help, everyone! Your suggestions, so far, are quite good. As far as the harpy's charm ability, I was using stats from a published 3.0 adventure. That's what I get for not doing my homework. I've since edited the original post.

Point taken about the experienced players headline, it could cause less folks to view it, so I've also edited the original title. My intention when I wrote it, however, was to attract as many people as possible who have actual play experience with this situation. I was not trying to discriminate, I just wanted to alert people that my questions were fairly involved and because of this I was really hoping that some more experienced folk (seemingly all of the people who've replied so far) would take note and help with my situation.

Now for a few more things:

When the PCs were heading toward the harpy's nest, I had them make listen checks to hear it's singing. It was DC15 to hear it before the harpy came into view. Ironically, it penalized characters who had better listen modifiers, but I felt it was appropriate.

The characters who didn't hear the singing wanted to plug their ears when the other PCs commented on the sound, but they didn't have anything suitable. All they had was dirt, so instead they wanted to use a piece of cloth that they could tear from their clothes! I was thinking of giving them a bonus on their will saves. Finally I decided, that if they could hear the harpy at all, then they should be affected by it. So, I told them that their idea was pretty silly(there was no way that cloth earplugs made in 2 seconds were going to be of any help), and that plugging their ears wouldn't matter because the harpy was using a spell-like ability. Unless they were completely deafened, they would be affected.

Anyway, please, as the title says, keep the responses to my first post coming. The more clarification I can get on my initial questions the better.

Thanks everyone,
Bill

 

[JoeBlank]

I played a dwarf barbarian who was deathly afraid of harpies, because he had seen one of his friends get charmed (3.0) and nearly die.

We had to rescue a fair maiden from a harpy, so my dwarf brought along a thunderstone and deafened himself on purpose when we were about to attack. The DM was shocked when I said "He pulls out a thunderstone and slams it against his own helmet."

 

[FireLance]

Just a couple of comments:

When the PCs were heading toward the harpy's nest, I had them make listen checks to hear it's singing. It was DC15 to hear it before the harpy came into view. Ironically, it penalized characters who had better listen modifiers, but I felt it was appropriate.

Note that a harpy's song only works in a 300-ft. spread (see my post above). If the characters are within the area of effect, they should have to make saves regardless of Listen checks. If they are not within the area of effect, you could call for Listen checks to recognise the danger, and characters who succeed shouldn't be affected. In that way, ranks in Listen become an asset instead of a liability.

The characters who didn't hear the singing wanted to plug their ears when the other PCs commented on the sound, but they didn't have anything suitable. All they had was dirt, so instead they wanted to use a piece of cloth that they could tear from their clothes! I was thinking of giving them a bonus on their will saves. Finally I decided, that if they could hear the harpy at all, then they should be affected by it. So, I told them that their idea was pretty silly(there was no way that cloth earplugs made in 2 seconds were going to be of any help), and that plugging their ears wouldn't matter because the harpy was using a spell-like ability. Unless they were completely deafened, they would be affected.

Well, plugging ears should help:

Sonic Attacks (Su): Unless otherwise noted, a sonic attack follows the rules for spreads. The range of the spread is measured from the creature using the sonic attack. Once a sonic attack has taken effect, deafening the subject or stopping its ears does not end the effect. Stopping one’s ears ahead of time allows opponents to avoid having to make saving throws against mind-affecting sonic attacks, but not other kinds of sonic attacks (such as those that deal damage). Stopping one’s ears is a full-round action and requires wax or other soundproof material to stuff into the ears.

I do agree that earplugs improvised from bits of cloth wouldn't have much of an effect. Whether the party can have easy access to wax (or whether they have to fight a swarm of bees to do so) is up to the DM.

 

[IronWolf]

I have found the following 'Charm Person Scenario' description helpful in the past when dealing with Charm Person spells and such. I found this on a newsgroup posting awhile back and have lost who originally authored it...

The basic scenario was a party's mage casting Charm Person on one of a number of warriors attacking them.

-----------------
IMO...
The charmed fighter would not attack the mage at all unless the
mage attacks him (and thus the charm spell is broken).

The charmed fighter's views on the rest of the party would still
be hostile and, without words from the mage, he would continue to
attack
(though wondering why his new good friend was hanging out with
such people).

The charmed fighter would continue to regard his fellow warriors
in the same manner as before excepting with regards to the mage.
I would say the charmed fighter would defend the mage even from
his old friends *without* needing to be asked. The magical charm
is stronger than most normal bonds of friendship.

If asked to stop attacking the party, the fighter would do so.
But he would still be hostile to them, and want to know a good
reason why he
shouldn't get on with lopping off some heads since it seemed like
a real good idea ten seconds ago.

If ordered to attack the other fighters, the charmed fighter
would have serious problems with this and would tell his old
friends to stop for a minute. His initial reaction would be one
of much confusion if you said "Kill them!". They are still his
friends. "Make them stop!" would probably be very effective
though as he grabs them from behind and yanks them out of battle.
Chaotic and/or evil alignments might be more likely to turn on
old friends especially if they are not particularly strong
friendships.
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