Charm Person

[wakedown]

Quick question for folks on Charm Person...

Charm Person includes verbal & somatic parts... so when you cast it on someone, they can definately tell you are casting a spell, and with a spellcraft check can even tell that you are trying to charm them with a spell. I haven't seen any mention of this giving a bonus to a saving throw.

How do folks handle this? Does the charmed creature forget the 6 seconds before it became charmed? Otherwise you'd have a situation where it would say 'hey weren't you just casting a spell a second ago?', and then you'd end up making a Bluff check (which you may not be good at).

What about if the charmed creature has allies around and realizes their buddy was charmed and are saying things like "Bob - snap out of it!"?

 

[calypso15]

It's magic. It magically makes their attitude toward you Friendly. So, even if they were offended by you casting the spell, doesn't matter. Their attitude then instantly changes to Friendly. The only time they get a bonus to the save is if you or your allies are actively threatening or attacking the target.

And, why would it listen to its friends about you? You two are buds!

Calypso

 

[Iku Rex]

The only time they get a bonus to the save is if you or your allies are actively threatening or attacking the target.

Like, say, if you're casting attack spells like charm person at it?

****

What about if the charmed creature has allies around and realizes their buddy was charmed and are saying things like "Bob - snap out of it!"?

I'd make it harder to manipulate the creature without having to make opposed charisma checks.


BTW, the following articles on Wotc's site may be helpful to anyone using these kinds of spells.

Rules of the Game: Enchantments (Part One) (Has links to more articles.)
Rules of the Game: Enchantments (Part Two)

 

[calypso15]

Like, say, if you're casting attack spells like charm person at it?

I'm sorry, but casting Charm Person at them does not count as an attack for the purposes of giving them a bonus to their save. The word "currently" implies prior to the casting of Charm Person. Not to mention that that idea fails the Ridiculous Test (tm).

Calypso

 

[RigaMortus2]

I'm sorry, but casting Charm Person at them does not count as an attack for the purposes of giving them a bonus to their save. The word "currently" implies prior to the casting of Charm Person. Not to mention that that idea fails the Ridiculous Test (tm).

Calypso

Besides the fact that they don't know WHO the target of the spell is going to be (assuming there is more than just you and the target there).

 

[Iku Rex]

I'm sorry, but casting Charm Person at them does not count as an attack for the purposes of giving them a bonus to their save.

I'm sorry but you're wrong according to the rules. Casting charm person on someone is an attack. Suddenly casting a spell in front of someone is threatening behavior. There is no exception for the charm spell itself.

The word "currently" implies prior to the casting of Charm Person.

No, it doesn't. eek: ) "Currently" refers to the time when the target has to make the save. Before you get that far you have to attack the creature with the spell. The DM may already have called for initiative rolls. Even if the creature doesn't understand that it's under attack it will certainly feel threatened if it knows anything about spells. (And possibly if it doesn't.)

Here's what Skip Williams has to say in Rules of the Game:

If the creature you target with a charm person spell is currently under attack by you or your allies, or under the threat of attack, the subject gets a +5 bonus on its saving throw. See page 171 in the Player's Handbook for a definition of attack as it pertains to spells. The DM must decide if the subject is under the threat of attack; this usually requires nothing more than a common sense judgment about what you and your allies are doing. If the subject can reasonably assume that you or your group will attack, it is under threat. For example, you and your group threaten attack if you've already attacked the subject's allies, when you menace the subject with weapons or spells, or when you've invaded some building or territory where you don't belong.

Not to mention that thatidea fails the Ridiculous Test (tm).

How do you figure? :\ There are plenty of ways to cast a charm spell without the target getting the bonus. Maybe the attacker is using a spell-like or supernatural ability. Maybe he's hiding or for some other reason going unnoticed. Maybe he's using Still and/or Silent spell. Maybe the attacker has bluffed or otherwise convinced the target into thinking the spell is harmless. (The latter won't work if the target has a good spellcraft skill.)

***

Besides the fact that they don't know WHO the target of the spell is going to be (assuming there is more than just you and the target there).

You're sitting in a bar. Suddenly some other patron pulls out a battle rifle. He chambers a round. "Ka-chink". There's soft "click" as the safety is turned off. He looks in your general direction and starts to raise his weapon...

Feeling threatened yet? There are other people around you. He might not be getting ready to fire at you. Right?

 

[RigaMortus2]

You're sitting in a bar. Suddenly some other patron pulls out a battle rifle. He chambers a round. "Ka-chink". There's soft "click" as the safety is turned off. He looks in your general direction and starts to raise his weapon...

Feeling threatened yet? There are other people around you. He might not be getting ready to fire at you. Right?

I am sorry, are we talking about the real world here with real weapons, or are we talking about magic spells using the rules of a role-playing game?

In your average D&D GAME, spells occur all the time. Are you going to feel threatened everytime someone casts a Light spell? Keeping in mind those unskiiled at magic will not recognize the words/gestures/componenst between a fireball and a mage hand.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Quick question for folks on Charm Person...

Charm Person includes verbal & somatic parts... so when you cast it on someone, they can definately tell you are casting a spell, and with a spellcraft check can even tell that you are trying to charm them with a spell. I haven't seen any mention of this giving a bonus to a saving throw.

How do folks handle this? Does the charmed creature forget the 6 seconds before it became charmed? Otherwise you'd have a situation where it would say 'hey weren't you just casting a spell a second ago?', and then you'd end up making a Bluff check (which you may not be good at).

What about if the charmed creature has allies around and realizes their buddy was charmed and are saying things like "Bob - snap out of it!"?

It really depends on a couple things. (1) Are you already engaged in combat with this creature and (2) What is the creatures attitude toward you? If the creature is friendly or helpful, I don't see any reason why they would feel threated with you casting a spell (until it is too late). If they are indifferent, they would be on guard and probably be suspicious of you anyway.

 

[Iku Rex]

In your average D&D GAME, spells occur all the time. Are you going to feel threatened everytime someone casts a Light spell? .

Not in the slightest. Of course, if some stranger looks at me and starts casting an UNKNOWN spell, I'll be freaking out. Becasue as a DnD character I'll know that spells can be extremely dangerous.

Likewise if he pulls out a crossbow, cocks it, and points it in my direction. (See - crossbow. No confusing modern weapon you can't possibly roleplay with in this example.) Sure, he might just be testing it, or showing off, but I'm still going to feel threatened...

Keeping in mind those unskiiled at magic will not recognize the words/gestures/componenst between a fireball and a mage hand.

Indeed. There's no telling what the nerfarious spellcaster is up to. Maybe he's planning to blow me up. Maybe he's getting ready to mind-rape me. Maybe he's about to strip the skin from my flesh with a wave of his hand. Either way, it's cause for concern.

 

[calypso15]

Iku Rex, I'm confused. You seem to be trying to make a number of different points. So let me ask you some hypothetical questions. I think we might be on the same page, and just arguing around the topic.

1. You're hiding in a bush. You cast Charm Person on Joe down the block. Does he get +5 to his save?
2. You're talking to Joe. You and Joe are acquaintences. You cast Charm Person on him. Does he get +5 to his save?
3. You're talking to Joe. You and Joe are acquaintences. You cast a Silenced, Stilled Charm Person on him. Does he get +5 to his save?
4. You're arguing with Joe. You and Joe are enemies (he stole your girl). You cast Charm Person on him. Does he get +5 to his save?
5. You're arguing with Joe. You and Joe are enemies (he stole your girl). You cast a Silenced, Stilled Charm Person on him. Does he get +5 to his save?
6. You are dueling Joe to the death. You cast Charm Person on him. Does he get +5 to his save?
7. You are dueling Joe to the death. You cast a Silenced, Stilled Charm Person on him. Does he get +5 to his save?

Calypso