D&D 5E Charm, the evil spells

[Amrûnril]

I fundamentally disagree. Not all violence is murder. All mind control is violation of Will.

Not all violence is murder. But intentionally killing a person when it's not necessary for protection is exactly what murder means, at least in an ethical sense.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Just learning to control minds in the first place is evil. It’s the only hypothetical knowledge that is evil to obtain.

Why is learning to mind control inherently more evil than learning to kill? Presumably, you don't have to actually mind control anyone to learn a mind control spell, any more than you need to own a magic item to learn Identify. Even if you do, there's no reason it couldn't be a volunteer (perhaps a fellow apprentice) who has consented to being charmed in return for practicing their spells on you.

 

[Raduin711]

I played a 3.5 eberron campaign as a Telepath Psion who used mind-effecting powers nearly exclusively, including dominate. I played him as LG. Or, he believed he was LG. YMMV.

He always tried to use diplomacy first in any conflict if it could be helped. He didn't use any mind-effecting powers for diplomacy, but he was very good at it, and he avoided some fights.

He actually had a power called Telempathic Projection, that could give bonuses to diplomacy by influencing another person's mood, but never used it, as he felt that was a bit underhanded in honest negotiation.

Once combat broke out, his justification was this: dominating his foes robbed them of their free will, yes... but temporarily. Death also robs a person of their free will, and permanently. Mind-control was the lesser of two evils then, because his foe would live to see another day. After the combat if his dominated foe was still alive he would force them to flee.

He also recognized that mind-effecting every opponent was impractical, and used powers like Mind Thrust as well.

I think he was LG, but you are free to disagree if you want. One party member would regularly tell him he was evil, and he did build up a rather terrifying reputation.... shrug

 

[Fanaelialae]

Not all violence is murder. But intentionally killing a person when it's not necessary for protection is exactly what murder means, at least in an ethical sense.

I would take it a step further and argue that all violence is a violation of self. It's simply that we say its acceptable in certain cases (self defense) but not in others (punching your neighbor because you felt like it).

 

[billd91]

I think there's some very... quirky... splitting of moral hairs here. This and other threads over the years are enough to make me really grateful that alignment has been so de-emphasized, particularly in mechanical terms, in the current edition of D&D.

 

[Voadam]

My plan with my good valor bard was to use suggestion to get info out of captured prisoners without the threat of torture that I saw being used a lot. Also "Surrender" as an in combat suggestion.

I had used charm person in AD&D and 3e for similar information gathering purposes when it made them treat you like a trusted best friend.

 

[Ace]

We regard narcissistic manipulation, gaslighting, DARVO and such as Evil in real societies. So is any malicious Witchcraft and the reality of it is irrelevant. Many parts of the world still kill suspected Witches.

Note Witch here used in its traditional form as user of harmful spells not the religion Wicca as such though there are huge parts of the real world world where practicing that faith isn't safe either.

Charm Person would probably be up there with Necromancy and known Enchanters at best distrusted.

Or it could just be ignored whatever works best for your game.

In my D&D worlds its treated like a gun, use it in defense of the community or to defend yourself or against monsters, no issues. Otherwise there will be consequences. Matters of sex are off screen in my games anyway though I'm sure there has been a case in which someone got consensually kinky with Dominate spells and it ended up in court. I'm not going to role play it out though.

 

[Amrûnril]

Why is learning to mind control inherently more evil than learning to kill? Presumably, you don't have to actually mind control anyone to learn a mind control spell, any more than you need to own a magic item to learn Identify. Even if you do, there's no reason it couldn't be a volunteer (perhaps a fellow apprentice) who has consented to being charmed in return for practicing their spells on you.

In terms of learning the magic, I think there's an important distinction in that combat spells can be learned with the intent of using them against non-sapient threats, while most charm spells can't. That said, in the real world, we have plenty of people trained with weapon systems that are only useful against humans, and we don't call such people (soldiers) automatically evil.

 

[pukunui]

Neither say they have the charmed condition ...

You are correct that friends does not impose the charmed condition. Charm person, however, does. It may not use the word "condition", but a failure on the saving throw against the spell renders the target "charmed by you" for the duration. In this context, being charmed means having the charmed condition.

]Now I am a big proponent of martial abilities. I have even in other threads suggested that a high Cha rogue or fighter should be able to fast talk someone into being charmed as per the condition.

You mean like the swashbuckler rogue's Panache feature?

Tasha's Cauldron also gives the battle master fighter a new maneuver called Commanding Presence that lets them add a superiority die to their Charisma checks. (The UA playtest version of this maneuver was even called "Silver Tongue".)

 

[Shiroiken]

With very few exceptions that are based on the function of the universe of the system (animate dead is the only one I can think of off the top of my head), no spell or knowledge is inherently evil. Evil is the action of using that knowledge in a way that fits the definition of evil within the game. Your personal view of evil outside of the game can impact a setting of your making (if a DM) and your character's view of such actions. However, this out of game view is entirely subjective, based on your philosophical view and societal norms.