Cheating cheaters

[Elrohir_of_Kellemar]

We had a player sneak into the desk of our DM to find out where treasure and traps were as well as what door to enter and such. He was simply amazing in his ability to make wonderous suggestions and find such powerful magic items. Gee, he even showed extreme intelligence in solving puzzles.

It all ended when the DM changed placement of items and rooms before one of our sessions. The player stopped playing with us. Not all cheating is equal.

Players lose respect for someone who cheats (and for DMs who allow it). They don't just lose respect for that player in game, but as a person outside the game as well. You are doing the player a service if you can correct their behavior before they lose the respect and friendship of the other players. This is especially true if you are all good friends.

Obryn - I think you have things pretty well handled in your mind and some of the comments have probably made that more so in their own way. Good luck - DMing sure requires a lot of skills, and 4ED doesn't affect some of them.

 

[MadMaxim]

To answer Obryn's question: Try your "cheering players" idea for a little while and if it doesn't produce any positive results, I'd take a face-to-face chat with her about the problem. She needs to know that it isn't okay to cheat and if she can't accept that, she'll have to find some other people to play with, because you prefer players you can trust.

And concerning the whole cheating issue in general: Stating facts as something else is just plain wrong. If you can't stick to the facts (the number you rolled on the die), you need to find another type of game to suit your needs.

 

[the Jester]

That's easy enough to say. But in reality, the tastes of different players will not match up 100%. And what if you can't find a group that shares the majority of your tastes? Or what if there's only one group in your area? Do you accept that you just don't get to play, or do you try to play anyway, with a group that doesn't share your preferences?

Let's put it this way: if you want to cheat in my game, you are OUT OF MY GAME.

If you can't find a group that accepts your "preferred playstyle" because it's cheating, maybe it's time to accept that cheating isn't a playstyle at all. "Cheating" means that, instead of playing the same game as everyone else, you are lying to them- claiming that you are playing the same game as them- but making up rules that only apply to yourself.

Seriously- is your position that, if you want to cheat at dnd and the rest of the group won't accept that, you have the right to impose your cheating on their game anyway?

Seriously, do you let people cheat when you play them at chess?

 

[Fifth Element]

Seriously- is your position that, if you want to cheat at dnd and the rest of the group won't accept that, you have the right to impose your cheating on their game anyway?

No, as I have stated several times, my point is that the solution to the problem is not automatically to boot the player or trick her into not cheating. If it's easier (on the whole) to just ignore it, then that's probably easier for everyone involved, because it's really not a big deal to imagine things in a slightly different way than they would have otherwise been imagined.

Seriously, do you let people cheat when you play them at chess?

If chess were a cooperative game played solely in the imaginations of the players, maybe.

 

[jmucchiello]

That's why there are different gaming groups.

Doesn't that cut both ways?

Although I completely disagree with your assessment up until this point it seemed to at least be consistent. "Why make a big deal over something one player does that bothers almost no one" (my paraphrase of all your posts). But now you seem to be crossing your own boundaries and going out of your way to accommodate the cheater with the statement "I would also ask the others "why does it bother you?" If it's something you can easily get over, we'd all be better off if you got over it. On either side." I would personally be extremely offended if a DM asked me to just "go along" with another player cheating and being curious as to "why it bothered me".

And yet, anecdotally, I already said I did exactly that with my group when we caught a player cheating. We (the other players and I) had an out of game powwow about "what to do about it". And I asked everyone standing there, "If that's how so-and-so needs to play to have fun, is it really a deal breaker?" Do you pitch your 15+ year relationship with him over cheating at a silly game? Yes, at first they reacted "But he's cheating." But at the point of kick your friend when he's down or learn to live with it, they all were willing to live with it.

I suppose the difference is I didn't put on my DM hat and say "we will do nothing." So it isn't exactly as you described. My only concern about it was that we would hang our friend out to dry as it were.

Again, I don't want you to think I'm a Kumbaya-singing** fool. There's friendship and there's things that cross the line. Another player was driving to game drunk and stepping our for a cig (and a drink) during game. Him we asked to get help and asked not to return until he got it.

** Firefox's spellchecker doesn't recognize Kumbaya. Suggestions: Lumbago or Scumbag.

 

[Fifth Element]

But now you seem to be crossing your own boundaries and going out of your way to accommodate the cheater with the statement "I would also ask the others "why does it bother you?" If it's something you can easily get over, we'd all be better off if you got over it. On either side." I would personally be extremely offended if a DM asked me to just "go along" with another player cheating and being curious as to "why it bothered me".

You're reading into my post something that isn't there. I'm not suggesting favouring the one player. I'm saying that if the other players really don't mind very much, it might be easier to just ignore it. What's the harm in asking?

If the other players have serious problems with it, then obviously that doesn't work. I'm just saying that "CHEATER BE GONE!!!" is hardly the only option in such a situation.

Bottom line, in trying to (over) accommodate the cheating player, you would loose a different player instead who believes cheating is just plain WRONG (not a play style).

If such a player is in the group, maybe. I'm not saying that the cheater must be accommodated. All I'm saying is that you should consider accommodating. As a counter-point to all the "boot her from the table!" comments.

 

[cougent]

jmucchiello and Fifth Element, you guys may just be better people than I am, but for a whole long laundry list of RL events (aka getting screwed over) I have ZERO tolerance for liars, and at the root that is what cheaters are is liars. I have seen the escalation happen far too many times to naively think it will stop at simple dice rolls once in a while. It may start as 2 per game, then it will be 5, then it will be a natural 20 on every single roll. So yes my 45 year old life and 27 year DM philosophy is to nip it in the bud and cut my losses.

Now having said that, all of my close friends know this of me and new friends learn it quickly. I do consider all of my gamers as friends and this particular situation has never come up in a game. If it did though, I would have to question the true level of friendship from such a person who would find it necessary to do that. I understand your points of "If I am a good friend I will ignore it" (again my paraphrase); but I would reverse it back to you that "If they were truly my friend, they would not do that in the first place."

EDIT: I forgot, on reference to the boot them from the table, that would be a last resort after a couple of private and polite conversations to try and avoid that, but yes if it cannot be resolved by any other means other than accepting the cheating then ultimately I would resort to that.

 

[Parlan]

But "cheating" is a very broad term. If you're talking about cheating on your taxes, I agree with you. Cheating in a game that ultimately doesn't really matter in any important sense? Not the same thing.

Funnily enough, I think the opposite. Cheating on taxes is illegal, but I wouldn't think less of a friend who did it.

Cheating at D&D tho is like welching on a bet. I just can't forgive it.

 

[Moggthegob]

I have only cheated in one game I ever played in ever. And that was because the group was large and the playstyle made me nervous.

I am mostly an rper and I was playing in a group where everyone's aim was to power-game. I still liked the game, and I liked my characters ,but always always it felt like I was an insignifiant member of the party.

It seemed like the only way to stand out or even get to be part of the story was to fudge rolls. The DM only ever actively ivolved the party leader in the plot. Everyone else gotto nothing, and as someone who doesnt often to play humans, I suffered more due to the DM's sensibilities on "how things work"( and don't get me started on magic, if you werent a sorceror, you didn't get spells....EVER).

Once again, I didn;t want to leave the group but I didnt want to change my playstyle. SO I contnued to fudge rolls and I got to stand out and I got to be part of the story. ANd I stopped dying( death occured often in this game)

So really as a result of pressure and a want to be involved in the game beyond rolling dice at the margins of the game, I felt like I HAD to cheat to actually get any enjoyment out ofthe game. Ironically, everyone was so wrapped up in their own stuf, they didnt even realize I was cheating until a new player joined and pointed it out.

This group has since split due to edition wars and I only game with one of them now.

 

[Crosswind]

Obryn, Fifth, etc:

I think there's a fairly simple solution. It involves a conversation like this:

"Hey, X. We've noticed that you keep stating that the numbers on your dice are higher than they are. You're our friend, and if it's that important to succeed, we're willing to support you - just let us know, and you can re-roll any dice you want, or just state the number you get. However, if it's not that important, we'd prefer that you stick to saying the number that actually comes up on your dice."

That way, FifthElement is happy - if they really just want to get really high numbers, they'll take the option.

And, everybody else is happy, 'cause it's no longer cheating. =)

-Cross (This is really just a way of pointing out that there's a difference between a player goal of "I want to roll really high and have my character succeed!", and "I want to be dishonest to my friends.")