Cheating cheaters

[Rel]

Actually, I like to read every post in a thread. But after visiting Enworld for several years and realizing how long winded we all are and how we repeat ourselves post after post, my new posting/reading style has been to read the first couple of pages, skip the middle pages, and finish off with the last page

So I did read his last 2 posts before I posted

His first 20 or so posts were about how he doesn't have a problem with cheaters and the OP should just deal with the cheating cause it's not that big a deal. Then his last 2 posts were about how he was really only talking about friends that cheat & how you should talk to them. By the end of the thread, I was still convinced that they are only claiming to be pro-cheating for the forum shock value. I didn't think that they really tolerated cheating players as if it was just a gaming style.

I'm sure, even if their "friend" who wants to join their group, had a "conversation" about how he will be constantly cheating if he's allowed into their group, these guys aren't going to just say, "Oh yer gonna cheat if you join our game? We're good friends so it sounds fine to me!"

Oryan, I find it difficult to imagine agreeing up front to accept someone (even a close friend) into my gaming group when they openly claim cheating as their playstyle. However there is nothing to be gained by claiming that Fifth Element doesn't believe what he is saying and, moreover, it is against the rules of the forum. So drop this line of reasoning.

 

[vagabundo]

I have a unrepentant cheater in my group, he is a good friend and generally contributes very constructively to the game. However he does change dice rolls if he can and his character sheet is in dire need of an Audit.

First off: it does not bother me all that much or my players at all. He is like this in real life and you either love him for it or hate him – and he rubs quite a number of people up the wrong way. I’ve incorporated it into my game and make jokes about “Auditing his character sheets” and about the “roll and move technique from RPGcheaters.com”.

I’ve caught him a number of times doing the “roll and move” and it is an auto failure and usually some other penalties I think up on the spot. Funnily enough, sometimes he would have hit or passed a skill check on the original roll.

I’ve told him he has to declare his rolls and I watch him roll the dice. I don’t get into the swamp that is his character sheet too much, if it bothered me I would Audit it periodically.

Saying that, it is part of my game now and it doesn’t take away from the enjoyment of the other players – it is like a game within the game. It sounds like you should take more direct measures as your other players do not like it. The key word here is direct.

 

[Arnwyn]

The first point is what I've been trying to say. "Boot her from the table" is not tactful.

Number of posts in this thread out of 163 in which "booting" has been the only suggestion: 6/163 = 3.7% of the posts in this thread - and almost all of them by the same person. All others, if booting was even brought up, noted such an action as being a last resort.

The second part seems simple enough. Just don't get hung up on something being "bad" if it really doesn't matter.

It has long since been noted that Obryn's OP, as well as his/her subsequent posts, were more than clear on this particular issue.

I have absolutely no idea why you are bringing up the "points" you are in this thread.

 

[Oryan77]

Oryan, I find it difficult to imagine agreeing up front to accept someone (even a close friend) into my gaming group when they openly claim cheating as their playstyle. However there is nothing to be gained by claiming that Fifth Element doesn't believe what he is saying and, moreover, it is against the rules of the forum. So drop this line of reasoning.

It's now against the rules to say "I don't believe what someone is posting is true"? Rather than constantly telling us what we can't post here on Enworld, why don't you guys just tell us what we can post? That should make the Enworld crews job easier and you don't have to do things like post sticky threads telling us what not to talk about. I swear, you guys make your job way harder than it needs to be.

Not a single swear word in my post, not a single attack against a persons character, I never mentioned anyones name, I never called anyone any names, and I wasn't even trolling...yet I'm being warned by a moderator about my posting behavior?

Why don't you guys just make Enworld a private "friends-circle" only forum so the rest of us don't bother you with our differing personalities? I mean this is really childish and getting out of hand. I really am offended that I'm being warned for simply stating that I don't believe what a poster is saying is true. You're making it seem like I'm a troll or something for giving my opinion. What in the world is a forum for then if we are only able to say what other people want to here? Why bother running a public forum if you can't be grown ups and let people have adult conversations?

I don't like dealing with trolls and flames like the rest, which is why I don't visit WotC RPG forums, but it doesn't make a forum any better if people are overly-sensitive and intolerant. It makes you just as bad as the WotC forums, only on the opposite side of the spectrum. Enworld used to be a middle ground which is why I liked visiting. This is incredible and I'm not the only poster I've seen this happen to in recent months.

I apologize to those that are bothered by this post and might find me annoying. But getting warned like this surprises me and frankly, I'm tired of seeing posters here being told that everything they say is against the rules now. No wonder it's so hard to make friends on these kind of forums when you're not part of the veteran posters circle. I'm sure I'm breaking some kind of rule here, so if this is cause for a ban, I apologize for speaking my mind & defending myself in this thread, and I will go back into my hole and deal with the repercussions. I don't mean to derail the thread.

 

[Storm Raven]

Number of posts in this thread out of 163 in which "booting" has been the only suggestion: 6/163 = 3.7% of the posts in this thread - and almost all of them by the same person. All others, if booting was even brought up, noted such an action as being a last resort.

Yep, that'd be me.

Here's the thing, a lot of people say things like "he's a great player and great to have around, except that he cheats". To me, that's not a great player, or even an acceptable player. To me, that's like saying "he's a great guy to hang out with, except that he pees on the floor". Or "he's a great player, except that he likes to talk about his graphic rape fantasies". Cheating, like peeing on the floor, is just a non-starter for me. Once you start doing that, then you just aren't worth bothering with any more.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Yeah...I honestly can't believe that people are actually defending cheating. You can rationalize it however you like, but cheating is cheating, and cheating isn't acceptable. Playstyle? Seriously, I laughed out loud in a quiet computer lab.

Maybe I'll sleep until 12:30 and show up at my 9 to 5 at 1:15 in jeans and a t-shirt and tell the boss to shove off, because this is my work style, and who is he to tell me no? Better yet, I think I'll go buy a hooker and bring her home, then tell my wife that it's my marriage style, and she should just look the other way. I'm sure that'll work out.

Why don't you guys just make Enworld a private "friends-circle" only forum so the rest of us don't bother you with our differing personalities? I mean this is really childish and getting out of hand. I really am offended that I'm being warned for simply stating that I don't believe what a poster is saying is true. You're making it seem like I'm a troll or something for giving my opinion. What in the world is a forum for then if we are only able to say what other people want to here? Why bother running a public forum if you can't be grown ups and let people have adult conversations?

I don't like dealing with trolls and flames like the rest, which is why I don't visit WotC RPG forums, but it doesn't make a forum any better if people are overly-sensitive and intolerant. It makes you just as bad as the WotC forums, only on the opposite side of the spectrum. Enworld used to be a middle ground which is why I liked visiting. This is incredible and I'm not the only poster I've seen this happen to in recent months.

I'm very sad to say I have noticed and experienced this as well, when I was told (not asked) what to think by a moderator, claiming that it was "against forum policy" to think otherwise. It really is incredible, and it really is getting out of hand. When rpg.net starts to look friendly, EnWorld has failed.

 

[Rel]

It's now against the rules to say "I don't believe what someone is posting is true"? Rather than constantly telling us what we can't post here on Enworld, why don't you guys just tell us what we can post? That should make the Enworld crews job easier and you don't have to do things like post sticky threads telling us what not to talk about. I swear, you guys make your job way harder than it needs to be.

Not a single swear word in my post, not a single attack against a persons character, I never mentioned anyones name, I never called anyone any names, and I wasn't even trolling...yet I'm being warned by a moderator about my posting behavior?

Why don't you guys just make Enworld a private "friends-circle" only forum so the rest of us don't bother you with our differing personalities? I mean this is really childish and getting out of hand. I really am offended that I'm being warned for simply stating that I don't believe what a poster is saying is true. You're making it seem like I'm a troll or something for giving my opinion. What in the world is a forum for then if we are only able to say what other people want to here? Why bother running a public forum if you can't be grown ups and let people have adult conversations?

I don't like dealing with trolls and flames like the rest, which is why I don't visit WotC RPG forums, but it doesn't make a forum any better if people are overly-sensitive and intolerant. It makes you just as bad as the WotC forums, only on the opposite side of the spectrum. Enworld used to be a middle ground which is why I liked visiting. This is incredible and I'm not the only poster I've seen this happen to in recent months.

I apologize to those that are bothered by this post and might find me annoying. But getting warned like this surprises me and frankly, I'm tired of seeing posters here being told that everything they say is against the rules now. No wonder it's so hard to make friends on these kind of forums when you're not part of the veteran posters circle. I'm sure I'm breaking some kind of rule here, so if this is cause for a ban, I apologize for speaking my mind & defending myself in this thread, and I will go back into my hole and deal with the repercussions. I don't mean to derail the thread.

Well now you've broken a very well known rule and so I've banned you for 3 days. I really wish I hadn't had to do that.

In answer to what it is you did wrong before, we do not permit ascribing motives to other people's posts. Why? Because if we allow that to happen then discussion frequently devolves into nothing but bickering about "I don't think you believe what you're suggesting. I think you're just playing devil's advocate." Right after that we tend to see a long string of "AM NOT!" and "ARE TOO!"

I'm sorry you felt so put upon. You might note that I didn't ban you for the earlier infraction. I didn't ban you from this thread. I didn't even use the "angry red text". I simply asked that you not follow that line of reasoning. I think we've seen it amply demonstrated that there are plenty of ways to disagree with Fifth Element's position without calling into question what motives he has for making his posts.

In terms of it not being a personal attack, I'll admit that it wasn't loud or vociferous. But you were basically saying that Fifth Element is a disingenous liar and whoring for attention. Who knows? Maybe he is. And you're welcome to think so. I'm not telling you what to think. I'm telling you what you're not allowed to post.

If you don't care for that restriction or aren't willing to acknowledge that it makes ENWorld a more productive place, then I guess you might want to find another forum to post at. Circvs Maximvs might be a good option for you. There you can tell people that they don't really believe what they are saying all you like. I don't think that it will earn you a lot of respect. But, at the very least, you can go there and post all manner of nasty things about me.

Might be worth considering.

Old Gumphrey, I'm not going to ban you for quoting that bit and complaining about the moderation in a thread (btw, folks are always welcome to complain about moderation via e-mail, just not in a thread). But I'd recommend you cut that out right now.

 

[Obryn]

Hey, guys - please don't hose up my thread about cheating with moderation complaints.

I'd rather not see it locked, so please find a new location for your Hidden Rebel Base. (I hear Hoth is nice this time of year.)

-O

edit: And Rel ninja'd me. Stinking, rotten moderators!

 

[MadMaxim]

Well, this thread seems to have devolved into the very thing that Rel has been saying. Some people believe there's a deeper reason behind Obryn's player's cheating. Others are basically calling her on it and want to tell her to stop it or boot her as a last resort. I think that's really what you can boil this six-page thread down to at the moment.

 

[cougent]

In a more direct response to the OP, I have had players who for whatever reasons decided to do exactly what the OP is proposing. To my knowledge there was no cheating going on, but I just have nosy players who want to see and blab every detail they can get. In a cross thread moment here, there is another thread about revealing DC or AC numbers, which I tend not to do. However my players will work it out for themselves and gleefully announce it to the rest of the group...

"You need a 22 to hit, and your bonus is +8 right? so you just need a 14... oh man a 12, damn!"

This sort of cross chatter is very common for my group, so I don't see any problem with a contrived version of same for the OP if it works out for him. I also don't see it as belittling or demeaning the player in question either. In fact (putting on pop psychology hat) I see it as a positive reinforcement to do the right thing even if it results in bad consequences. If the player sees that rolling bad does not cause the world to end, and if they are forced to reveal the true rolls, then maybe they will get used to it by shear repetition and unconsciously decide to do it on their own when the chance arises in the future? (taking hat off)