Check I haven't screwed up

[GreyLord]

You have too many 1st level spells known, 10, you need to drop some. You get 3 + int modifier to start with, or 7 in your case. I suggest dropping Summon Monster I -- it takes 1 round to cast (ie, doesn't come until start of your next turn) and only lasts for 1 round at level 1. Other two, whatever you want to drop.

WOW...good catch I guess. I went over the stuff, but everyone mentioned most of what I'd have said (short of some min/max ideas I may have tossed in, but those aren't problems with the character, just opinions of what I may have done differently).

However, I didn't count spells.

On arcane bonds...I think the bonus spell outweighs any thing dealing with losing it, I believe you can get another arcane bond easily enough.

Plus, since he chose a ring I'd imagine it may be harder to lose it then other things (though I prefer to have something that can be used otherwise for the arcane bond in addition to simply being worn).

 

[Henry]

The case for Arcane Bond is not as clear-cut as Steel Wind says.

Arcane Bond does allow a flexible spell once per day. The downside is that if your Arcane Bond is lost, stolen, or sundered, every spell you cast requires a concentration check, which sucks. On the other hand, if your pet goldfish dies ... nothing happens.

That part wouldn't bother me very much because the Wizard is already dependent on equipment -- his spellbook. If the DM is rat-bastardly enough to sunder your arcane bond, he's already past the point of being rat-bastardly enough to having someone steal or destroy your spellbook, too.

 

[Steel_Wind]

as was pointed out the last time I saw you raising these points (in
http://www.enworld.org/forum/pathfinder-rpg-discussion/308414-building-good-wizard-2.html ) unless there is some serious ignoring of the wealth by level you're going to have to be sinking pretty much everything you earn into scrolls to get near 400 spells (at least unless you want them all to be low level)

You mean Systole's table here?

Sp. # $/ Tot.$/ Cum. Wiz.
Lvl. Sp. Scr. Scr. Tot. Lvl. WBL

1 75 25 1875 1875 2 3000
2 100 200 20000 21875 4 10500
3 95 450 42750 64625 6 33000
4 80 800 64000 128625 8 62000
5 80 1250 100000 228625 10 82000
6 70 1800 126000 354625 12 108000
7 60 2450 147000 501625 14 185000
8 45 3200 144000 645625 16 315000
9 40 4050 162000 807625 20 880000


I chose not to get into that misguided pissing match and exited the thread, but without putitng too fine a point on it, Systole was dead wrong in his methodology.

No Wizard learns spells that way. He chose the most cost prohibitive manner possible to do it, instead of using the actual cost of how a Wizard would do it, which is to copy the spell from an existing spellbook into your own at the cost noted at page 219 of the Core Rules. Systole's method was off by a factor of about 6 for the overall results, and he grossly exaggerated the number of spells there were in the book, too.

Corrected for those fundamental errors, the actual costs, (without taking into account: a) a character's getting spells to start the game; b) two free spells on gaining a level; c) finding a spellbook during play that you DID NOT have to pay for the privilege of copying; and d) utterly discounting the finding of a scroll during an adventure) AND using the actual number of spells there were to learn in the Core Rulebook, the actual crunch is as follows:

Sp.   # Sp   $/         Tot.$/           Cum.     Wiz.       WBL       
Lvl.  Sp.    Copy       Copy Cost         Tot.     Lvl

1      40       15         600            600       2        3000
2      51       60        3050           3650       4       10500 
3      43      135        5805           9455       6       33000
4      42      240       10080          19535       8       62000 
5      47      375       17625          37160      10       82000
6      47      540       25380          62540      12      108000
7      40      735       29400          91940      14      185000
8      37      960       35520         127460      16      315000
9      24     1215       29160         156620      18      888000

As you will see, the actual cost of learning every spell in the Core Rulebook employing a NON-INSANE method of learning spells never exceeds the Wealth by Level for the Wizard, not even once. Again, the above does not reflect learning spells by gaining a level, or by finding a scroll or spellbook, or sharing spells with a fellow party member.

If you want to double the number of spells learned by including spells in other volumes, it's STILL less than the WBL, and that's without taking into account further cost reductions which are certain to present themselves during actual gameplay.

But, please, don't let me stop you from repeating flawed data ad nauseum just because you read it somewhere on the Internet. You've clearly already made up your mind on this subject, right?

 

[Systole]

I chose not to get into that misguided pissing match and exited the thread, but without putitng too fine a point on it, Systole was dead wrong in his methodology.

What, you mean that you chose not to get into that misguided pissing match then, but now that Treantmonk isn't paying attention and you've had four and a half months to think up a comeback, it's a completely different story?

Let me enlighten you a bit on methodology, because you seem to be ... misguided. Or possibly willfully ignoring things that I put in my actual post, assuming you'd bothered to actually read it.

1. "No Wizard learns spells that way." I have no idea what campaigns you play in, but I've had to go out and find a scroll for pretty much every spell my wizards have ever learned. A wizard would have to learn half his spells for free in order to learn every spell and come in under WBL.
2. "without taking into account: a) a character's getting spells to start the game" You nailed me on this one. I did not account for the cost of all the cantrips and a handful of first level spells. So my original total of eight hundred and seven thosaud was off by ... a couple hundred gp. Damn.
3."b) two free spells on gaining a level" which I explicitly noted that I ignored. 40 out of about 650, or about 6%.
4. "c) finding a spellbook during play that you DID NOT have to pay for the privilege of copying" ... which is accounted for in Wealth By Level.
5. "d) utterly discounting the finding of a scroll during an adventure" ... which is also accounted for in Wealth By Level.
6. "learning every spell in the Core Rulebook" when I explicitly said I was counting UM and APG?


Helpful hint: You can refer to my methodology as "insane" if it makes you feel better, but I've got a feeling that might be a hard sell.

 

[Steel_Wind]

1. "No Wizard learns spells that way." I have no idea what campaigns you play in, but I've had to go out and find a scroll for pretty much every spell my wizards have ever learned. A wizard would have to learn half his spells for free in order to learn every spell and come in under WBL.

The costs in the above post are based upon paying for access to every single spell in the Core Rulebook, plus the costs of copying them. See page 219.

"In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook)."

You are mistaken.

[The End.]

 

[Systole]

The costs in the above post are based upon paying for access to every single spell in the Core Rulebook, plus the costs of copying them. See page 219.

"In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook)."

You are mistaken.

[The End.]

Lawdy me, lawdy me,, how will I ever overcome my fear of replying to a thread in which someone has posted [The End]? It's like there is no possible response!

Oh wait, I just responded. Never mind.

In most cases, wizards charge a fee for copying from their spellbooks ... if you can find them and the spells you want are available. However, I've been playing D&D for 25 years, and I've been playing PF since it came out, and that has never happened. Scrolls? Yes. Captured spellbooks? That too. Maybe it happens to other players who I've never met, but your assertion that "No wizard ever learns spells that way" is patently false. Stop being willfully ignorant.

 

[Morrus]

OK, guys. Review your manners, check who started this thread and is therefore reading it, and evaluate your chosen strategy. Hint: suboptimal.

 

[N'raac]

In most cases, wizards charge a fee for copying from their spellbooks ... if you can find them and the spells you want are available. However, I've been playing D&D for 25 years, and I've been playing PF since it came out, and that has never happened. Scrolls? Yes.

How is the scroll available if the seller does not have the spell in his or her spellbook? Presumably, it is in there and could be copied.

Counterbalancing that, the spellbook has a much greater value to the wizard, but most wizards eventually make a backup spellbook, and I'd imagine a SpellSeller would do so.

Economics? I can scribe what, one scroll per day, and it costs me half the selling price of the scroll. I can sell you access to my spellbook for multiple spell access and reuse the spellbook repeatedly.

If I'm going to make money selling spells, it seems like making more spellbooks for wizards to copy from would be the way to go. A lare building with rows of tables for spell-copying (I may as well make more money selling the necessary tools and equipment, right?) allows the spellbooks to remain on premises while the purchaser copies out his spell.

3rd Ed brought with it a certain commoditization of magic, wth the assumption you can buy those items you desire and can afford rather than beong stuck with whatever you find. That presupposes an economy. If access to spellbooks is a better business model (and I think it is) than scroll sales, then logically the better business model will evolve to more efficiently move this commodity.

The PC has chosen a diffeent career path, so he lacks the infrastructure to sell access to his spells, but the ready availability of magical items seems to presuppose others who made a different choice. They must be pretty smart - they're wizards, after all - so I would expect them to use a smart business model.

Sorry to derail your thread, Morrus! My experience is that I want a spellbook that has those utility spells I might wait a day to learn (for example, Stone to Flesh) and the spells I expect to carry every day. Sure, there are hundreds of spells available. Many are selections of different spells for similar purposes. I have no need to have every attack spell in my book, for example. There's no need, and no major benefit, to collecting them all. Unless, I suppose, I plan on making a career in magical device creation and spell sales!

Hav you picked a specialization? Maybe you kept the pre-fab's specialization? [Maybe you're playing him already and any advice is too late?]

 

[IronWolf]

How is the scroll available if the seller does not have the spell in his or her spellbook? Presumably, it is in there and could be copied.

Depends on how magic item acquisition works in your game. The above makes the assumption a wizard has setup shop. It could just as well be a curio shop run by someone with no magical talent to speak of, but simply brokers scrolls and other items that pass through the market.

In games you run it is certainly possible there is a wizard in town that sells access to his spellbook for people to copy from. Or even an arcane college that provides a similar service. That might not be a possibility in all games though.

 

[N'raac]

Depends on how magic item acquisition works in your game. The above makes the assumption a wizard has setup shop. It could just as well be a curio shop run by someone with no magical talent to speak of, but simply brokers scrolls and other items that pass through the market.

In games you run it is certainly possible there is a wizard in town that sells access to his spellbook for people to copy from. Or even an arcane college that provides a similar service. That might not be a possibility in all games though.

Cetainly any game will have its own structure. However, if that mystery broker can readily lay his hands on a scroll of any spell one happens to be looking for (the clear presumption if the wizard is able to get every spoell published into his spellbook through scroll purchases), how is it that he is unable to lay his hands on spellbooks with equal ease?

The lack of verissimilitude is increased if we can also purchase any magic item in the books from this "curio dealer". His connections let him access so many esoteric items, right on up to a Ring of Wishes or a Ressurection item, yet the one thing he can't lay his hands on is a spellbook - even a book with no higher than first or second level spells? Pretty strange connections.

As the RAW provides a price for the service of accessing spells to copy, I don't see why that one commodity would be impossible to obtain if scrolls specifically, and even more so items in general, can be easily obtained. There is no game balance reason for it, and I see no logical explanation for it. As a construct, it seems to be put in place solely to make it more costly than the RAW for wizards to enhance their repertoire.