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[Blacky the Blackball]

Hey! I'm being talked about!

(It's been a while since I posted here, but I remembered my password after a couple of attempts...)

I like this - although I fear the *implications* it may have

Some comments:

The Defender - I find peculiar this AC boosting weapon is in the same category as armor +2.

AC bonuses - especially higher than a +1 - are given a high level because of the way that they can be stacked. Since a Defender can give you up to a +3 AC boost, I could easily have made it more expensive (or even priceless).

Efretti chain: I also find it particular that this +3 armor with fire resistance (immunity?) is on the same category as armor +2

Chain +3 is only the equivalent of Plate +1, which brings the price way down.

Vicious weapon: This is clearly worse than a +1 weapon.

The important bit is that it's still a magic weapon (and therefore cuts through the damage resistance against non-magic damage that many monsters have).

Trident of fish command: This is *way* better than in older editions... but as good as a +3 weapon? Really?

The price is based on being able to cast a fourth level spell (Dominate Monster) two to five times per day, rather than its general utility as a weapon (it would be priced the same if it were a "Wand of Dominate Monster" rather than a trident). It could be argued that the price should be lowered because it's limited to things that have a swim speed, but then it could also be argued that the price should be raised because it also counts as a magic weapon. I just let those cancel each other out and left it at the base price for that spell effect.

edit: for some bizarre reason, control-F will *not* work with this file *if* I search for staff. I can find other items just fine... weird.

That's... really weird. I've just checked and it does that for me too. I think there's some kind of weird glyph substitution going on with the font where it's using a single character for the 'ff'. I certainly typed it with two separate 'f' characters, though.

 

[Ancalagon]

Doesn't the trident only have 3 charges?

And yes Effreti chain is "only" chain, but by this list, it's *any* armor +2. So Efretti chain is as good as plain chain +2?!?

Finally, I will post more on rarity/statistics but I don't have the time now.

cheers,

 

[TwoSix]

Doesn't the trident only have 3 charges?

And yes Effreti chain is "only" chain, but by this list, it's *any* armor +2. So Efretti chain is as good as plain chain +2?!?

By my reading of the RPG.net thread, any armor that isn't at the top end of the armor type list (studded leather, breastplate, plate) should get a deep, deep discount on price.

 

[TwoSix]

That's one view on Blacky's approach. I'm sure there are others.

Yea, after reading the thread I ended up on Blacky's side. There's value in linking back to the DMG assumptions for prices other than on magic items. And I want treasure hordes with items, not purely cash.

 

[Ancalagon]

So briefly, the stats.

I don't have the books with me so I'm going to make something up, but I think that it will illustrate my point. I'll note that one of the item is fictional (haha), to avoid power comparisons.

Let's say that, in the DMG , a shield +1 is uncommon, and an acid sword is very rare. However, there is only 1% chance of rolling for the shield +1 and 10% for the acid sword. Clearly, the shield +1 is rarer than the acid sword!

BUT they are not on the same treasure table! So while it is true that a high level character will have more chances to get an acid sword than a +1 shield, high level characters are *rare*. And the high "level" wondrous hoards of treasure (Or well equipped dangerous foes) are also rare, or at least rarely successfully plundered/vanquished.

So you can't compare the rarity of items if they are not on the same treasure tables !

 

[Blacky the Blackball]

So briefly, the stats.

I don't have the books with me so I'm going to make something up, but I think that it will illustrate my point. I'll note that one of the item is fictional (haha), to avoid power comparisons.

Let's say that, in the DMG , a shield +1 is uncommon, and an acid sword is very rare. However, there is only 1% chance of rolling for the shield +1 and 10% for the acid sword. Clearly, the shield +1 is rarer than the acid sword!

BUT they are not on the same treasure table! So while it is true that a high level character will have more chances to get an acid sword than a +1 shield, high level characters are *rare*. And the high "level" wondrous hoards of treasure (Or well equipped dangerous foes) are also rare, or at least rarely successfully plundered/vanquished.

So you can't compare the rarity of items if they are not on the same treasure tables !

You can, if you take the p135 guidelines about how many hoards of each type a party is expected to get over the course of a campaign into account, although I do take your point.

But you don't need to do that. There are also examples of items on the same treasure table whose relative frequencies on that table bear no relationship to the "rarity" that the DMG assigns them.

For example +1 Half Plate ("Rare") and +3 Leather Armor ("Legendary") are on the same table and have the same chance of being found.

However, even if it were the case that the tables were perfect in terms of having the "rarity" of items reflected in the actual odds of finding them, that does nothing to assuage the main problem that the exercise was designed to overcome - that the rarity has nothing to do with usefulness and some powerful items are inexplicably low rarity (and therefore low priced) while other items are inexplicably high rarity (and therefore high priced). That was the reason for replacing the rarity-based pricing model with a utility-based one.

 

[Blacky the Blackball]

By my reading of the RPG.net thread, any armor that isn't at the top end of the armor type list (studded leather, breastplate, plate) should get a deep, deep discount on price.

Yeah - I just tend to think that people would only bother enchanting the top end armours, unless there's some reason why not. Presumably Efreeti Armor, for example, can - for complex magical reasons - only be made as Efreeti Chain; and while Efreeti Plate would be theoretically be better, the enchantments won't hold for some reason. That's why the DMG entry for it is so specific about the type of armour.

But if all you're doing is making something like generic +1 Armor, there's no point making a +1 Chain Shirt when you could be making a +1 Breastplate for approximately the same amount of time, effort, and material outlay.

 

[Ancalagon]

However, even if it were the case that the tables were perfect in terms of having the "rarity" of items reflected in the actual odds of finding them, that does nothing to assuage the main problem that the exercise was designed to overcome - that the rarity has nothing to do with usefulness and some powerful items are inexplicably low rarity (and therefore low priced) while other items are inexplicably high rarity (and therefore high priced). That was the reason for replacing the rarity-based pricing model with a utility-based one.

What's more rare, a galaxy 7 smartphone or a Azzedine Alaia gown? What's more useful? What's more expensive?

IT'S INEXPLICABLE!

The problem is that you are creating prices that makes sense to *you and me* - modern human beings who value expediency and efficiency. People in a fantasy world don't necessarily have those values.

 

[CapnZapp]

People in a fantasy world don't necessarily have those values.

Blacky: if you're new to ENWorld would advise you to just ignore this.

The obvious reply is "if you don't like rational utility-based pricing, you're in the wrong thread."

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

But if all you're doing is making something like generic +1 Armor, there's no point making a +1 Chain Shirt when you could be making a +1 Breastplate for approximately the same amount of time, effort, and material outlay.

If you're assuming that magical capability develops in parallel with technological development, that does make a sort of sense. - The renaissance-level culture of most PC races are the only people who can enchant armour, so they only enchant the very best stuff.

While cultures of more medieval tech level or lower may regard chain armour, (or even hide) as the pinnacle of protection, if they just plain don't know how to enchant armour, you won't get any of it floating around or locked away in ancient tombs.