Checks, saves, ACs and telling the numbers

[Quasqueton]

Should DMs tell players the DC of skill tasks they face? How about the DC of saves? Or the AC of their opponents?

As a DM I usually tell the players the DC of the skill they are about to attempt (right after giving a description of the situation). For instance, when the player must scale a wall to reach a the balcony of the castle I'll say, "the wall is worn by the weather quite a bit, and the bricks are slightly shifted over the years of neglect, Climb DC 15."

But with save DCs, I'll *maybe* tell the players. If the the information is not all that big a deal, I'll just say, "Reflex save vs the hellhounds' breath is DC 13," or "Fort save vs the medusa's gaze is DC 15." But if the information is not something standard, such as the save vs the BBEG's spells or an unidentified poison, I'll not say the number.

And for ACs, I use the same criteria as with saves. I'll just tell the players they need to hit AC 14 vs the orc grunts, or even AC 26 vs the dragon. But I'll probably not tell them immediately what the AC is of the BBEG or his unknown cohorts.


I've seen some DMs who just do not want to tell the DC of anything, even simple skill checks. I sometimes get an annoyed look from the DM when I ask what the DC is. I'm usually asking for two reasons: one, to get a better understanding of the DM's description; two to determine if I can just Take 10 on the check. I've heard DM's say "very difficult" to refer to a DC 20 and a DC 30 skill check. The DC 20 is actually not very difficult for a mid level character with ranks in the relevant skill. I've also heard DM's say "fairly easy" to describe DC 10 and DC 5. A DC 10 Balance check is not easy (perhaps not even possible) for a 8 Dex dwarf in plate.

And I've seen many times when battle mechanics could be handled faster if only the DM would just say, "the goblins are AC 16", rather than have to listen to every number the players roll. Players could say, "one hit, one miss" rather than, "a 16 and a 12".

So, how do you or your DM handle this information? Do you tell the numbers?

Quasqueton

 

[Dungannon]

As a general rule, I don't tell players the target number. It helps with suspense and keeps the players on the toes, especially when I ask them to roll when there's no readily apparent reason for it.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

I *try* to do it based on if I think the character could determine it. I typically do it based on whatever words happen to come out of my mouth at the time.

So in theory...

Jumping over a pit: yes, the character could guess that.
Chugging hemlock: no, the character thought it was fruit punch.
Armor Class: No, its in the middle of combat and there are too many variables for the character to consider.

In practice....

Jumping over a pit: no, I'm being a stupid nerd and not telling them. Ha ha ha. I am the powerful DM.
Chugging hemlock: yes, because I just had a brain fart and wasn't thinking
Armor Class: yes, because I'm trying to move combat along swiftly


... I honestly try to stick with theory more than practice, but things sometimes get out of hand.

 

[Mark]

I sometimes tell the numbers if it is a life and death situation and I do not want the option of fudging...to allow life, that is...

 

[Crothian]

I never tell the DCs, let the PCs fear what they don't know.

 

[d20Dwarf]

I usually don't tell the target numbers so I'll always have the option to fudge things if something goes horribly wrong. Once they've guessed a target number, such as by missing with a 16 and hitting with a 17 (ok, it's AC is 17!), then I'll usually confirm it to help speed things along.

 

[Keith]

There are a couple of reasons that haven’t been mentioned for the DM to keep as many numbers as practical to themselves, I think. One is that circumstances can and should change ACs during combat, and the less often things are portrayed as fixed and unvarying, the better. Another is that, in my view, having 1 or 2 points of AC variation even among a group of otherwise homogenous creatures is a nice bit of flavor in the game- personally, I always do that. Along with different HP, it gives some tiny amount of individuality to the opposition.
The really important factor, though, is I think this: It is the DMs job to take the raw, dull numbers and turn them into a description of combat, and they should retain that role under all circumstances. Rather than speeding up combat because it is getting dull, add more descriptive flavor to it to keep it interesting. Those hits and misses need to be livened up a bit, at least some of the time. The DM could hand over AC and HP and go for lunch, but that is really not what the game is about...combat itself should be tense and involving, not just the means to the end of dead creatures to count up.
Finally, while it is true that “Players could say, "one hit, one miss" rather than, "a 16 and a 12"”, I don’t see how that either speeds up the game, or adds anything interesting to it. It is nice when a player rolls high if they throw in a little descriptive flair sometimes, though, and it is worth taking the time for such things, I think.

 

[bwgwl]

i usually don't give out DCs, but i can see the argument for doing so (the character being able to judge accurately the difficulty of the task).

i wouldn't ever give out the DC of a save, though.

i keep ACs to myself as well, but the players usually figure them out by round 3 anyways. "well, Steve rolled a 16 and missed and Chris rolled a 17 and hit -- they must have AC 17..."

 

[Umbran]

Frequently, especially in the case of AC, the players will be able to guess the number soon enough. If the combat lasts a little while, they'll be able to guage it based upon what hits and what misses. In such cases, you lose little by telling the players, and you gain a bit of speed.

For more one-shot occurrances (like climbing DC, or a single save) they aren't likely to get enough informatioin to guess, so I won't generally divulge the DC.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I don't reveal DCs, but players figure them out. Once they do, I'll confirm to speed things up.

If they ask "how difficult would that be?" I make an estimate based on a take 10 and tell them easy, fair, hard, impossible, or whatever.