Chess is not an RPG: The Illusion of Game Balance

I've been using 4d6 drop lowest as default for many years. Only once, in a recently started forum game, did it happen that a player's rolls were totally hopeless 3 times in a row. We were joking he should play a farmer...

Recently, some groups I follow have taken to using the 5d6 drop 2 lowest method.
 

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There is a certain boost to ones self-esteem that comes from feeling you earned a 40+ point buy character when you 'randomly' roll it up, for example, that you don't get when the DM says, "Sure, make 45 point buy characters." People would rather think of themselves as "hard core" and "old school" and whatever.
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I think you are seriously projecting here. Rolling high isn't an accomplishment. And playing in a game where you roll 3d6 down the line and take what you get (which I prefer personally) isn't a sign of being hard core or old school. The old school method from AD&D 1E was 4d6 drop the lowest and they even emphasized in the book the importance of having two high stats and being exceptional. So it isn't like people using 4d6 are busting the system. Even folks who use 4d6 and do two sets, are not disrupting the balance of the game. I think most of the folks here can attest the game runs fine whether you do 4d6 or two sets of 4d6. I've never encountered issues running it with those or with 3d6. With the latter you will get weaker characters generally and you might experience a bit more character death (particularly early on). Again none of that makes one hard core. This isn't MMA here. We are just rolling up characters and sending them into dungeons and wilderness. I mean whether your okay with characters being weak or characters dying a lot just has to do with whether you find character death disruptive to play or not (some people do, some don't).

I don't know, like with the whole random thing, maybe people should just take us at our word here rather than project motives on us like wanting to be hardcore.
 

if it tends toward generating overly powerful characters (in your opinion)

In Pathfinder, it creates characters with higher stats then the designers were designing the system for, as an objective matter.

In 5E, two sets produces characters with higher stats then 4d6, the default, but at least that should be obvious to DMs. Even 4d6 is likely to stomp 5Es other stat generation systems, which are 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 (place by taste) and a point buy that doesn't let you take stats above 15.
 

I've been using 4d6 drop lowest as default for many years. Only once, in a recently started forum game, did it happen that a player's rolls were totally hopeless 3 times in a row. We were joking he should play a farmer...

One player of mine was commenting about always rolling low so I had him roll 21-3d6 for the exact same distribution and his stats came out pretty good.
 

In Pathfinder, it creates characters with higher stats then the designers were designing the system for, as an objective matter.

Not in a particularly significant manner. The game still defaults to 4d6 and whether or not rolling 2 sets lads to more power depends a lot on the player strategy. I've seen players take the set that tops out at 15 when an 18 was on the other set because it avoided multiple lows. It's just not that big a deal and not at all a game breaker.
 

In Pathfinder, it creates characters with higher stats then the designers were designing the system for, as an objective matter.

Yes, 4d6 does often result in higher overall stats; but it doesn't necessarily increase the power level of the character. 4d6 has a tendency of achieving those higher overall stats by increasing the value of tertiary stats and/or increasing the proportion of odd stats; both inflate the equivalent point buy without increasing the actual power level of the character. 4d6 also makes an 18 ability much harder to come by than a point buy system does.
 

Considering 4d6 is the default method of character generation, if it tends toward generating overly powerful characters (in your opinion), then maybe the problem is the point-buy value low-balls the amount PCs should be given. In any event, rolling 4d6, even rolling two sets and taking the preferred result, certainly doesn't create overpowered characters nor are they broken. I'd venture to say that they are less game breaking than point-buy characters considering randomly rolled characters tend to ameliorate differences between single-attribute and multi-attribute classes - a problem fed by point-buying stats.

That's not really true though. Looking at 3e, mostly because that's the system I'm most familiar with, a 35 point buy character is operating in all respects at one level higher than a 25 point buy character - his HP, AC, saves, bonus spells, skill bonuses - are all one level higher.

Whether you consider that to be broken or not is a matter of taste, but, the math certainly says its a pretty big advantage.

I mean, if you were to go to your DM and say, "Ok, I'll make a 25 point buy character instead of 4d6 drop lowest, roll twice. But, I start at 2nd level instead of 1st like everyone else," do you think any DM would go for it?

Heck, can I play an 18 point buy character in your game, but start two levels ahead of everyone else? Would that be perfectly fine?

At the end of the day, die rolled characters are almost always higher value than point buy characters. And that's a balance issue. It might not be a huge one, but, it does make a difference. I know that my earlier D&D experiences vary wildly from, say, [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION]'s because we were very generous with character generation. The idea of a fighter that didn't have a percentile strength was a foreign one to my groups. Why would you play a fighter if you didn't have percentile strength? :p
 

Yes, 4d6 does often result in higher overall stats; but it doesn't necessarily increase the power level of the character. 4d6 has a tendency of achieving those higher overall stats by increasing the value of tertiary stats and/or increasing the proportion of odd stats; both inflate the equivalent point buy without increasing the actual power level of the character. 4d6 also makes an 18 ability much harder to come by than a point buy system does.

That's only true if you run 4d6 drop the lowest straight up (which I did). However, the default method 1 is 4d6 drop the lowest and rearrange to taste. Most of your objections in practice don't actually follow. In 3e, even boosting tertiary stats offers major advantages. A fighter might could get buy without high dexterity or wisdom, but he certainly wouldn't object to them so having an extra high 3rd best or 4th best score or having no low scores in anything is certainly an advantage. Odd stats don't lead to immediate advantage at low level, but can be easily bought up at higher level to significant advantage. In fact, there is one school of thought that says that for certain classes don't pay for the even number which generally has high cost. Instead, start odd and use the point savings to boost a tertiary stat by 2-4 points and then boost to the even number at 4th level. And certainly in 1e with its less smooth adjustments, there was a huge advantage in a 15 over a 14 and 17 over a 16.

And while 4d6 does make an starting 18 ability somewhat harder to rely on, generally in point buy systems buying that 18 requires gimping all the rest of your stats. With 4d6, if you luck out and roll the 18, all the rest of your stats will likely be what they would be otherwise. You get that huge point boost for free.

Your argument that 4d6 in general didn't lead to large advantages relative to other players is more applicable to 1e, where a 8 in anything but your prime requisite was not significantly worse than 14 in most cases and you often pay no relevant penalty for it over the course of your career. So for example, a 1e centered point buy might well make it cost almost nothing to boost an 8 to an 11 and little to boost and 8 to 12 or 13. Thus a player with the stats of 16, 15, 8, 8, 8, 8 isn't in 1e really that much disadvantaged over the one with 16, 15, 13, 12, 11, 11 even though by 3e centered point buy systems we might say the second scores cost much more to buy.

However, I think we've pretty definitively demonstrated that played straight up with no rerolls, 4d6 drop the lowest produces a range of 1e starting characters between hopeless commoners and nascent demigods even over small sample sets. And once you add a table rule that lets you "reroll hopeless characters until you get a good result", the average point buy in 3e terms becomes quite high - generally above that of any standard point buy. Arguably, even if this was balanced for 1e's expectations of starting character ability, it's not balanced for 3e's EL/CR expectations which assumes that characters have something like an elite stat array to begin with. And even to the extent that you can deal with that, it's certainly not balanced between the players themselves or ensuring equal access to gameplay.

However, for practical purposes, most 1e groups found some way of dealing with this by working around the randomness to get a end result similar to "set your own ability scores", so that many groups could say, "I've never seen a fighter without 18+ strength." I didn't run my own table that way, but I certainly did play with DMs who found that tolerating that sort of thing was better in the long run that trying to hold players to the results of the random methodologies.

Had I to go back to random method, I'd probably use some variation of Method III and perhaps adjust the number of rolls in each group (probably down to 5 rolls per group). Method III produces rather OP characters compared to even Method I, but basically never requires a "hopeless character" rule (which means in practice it isn't that far from Method I + rerolls) and produces must more consistently playable characters concentrated around a small range of power levels. I think you could use Method III without the social illusionism and hypocrisy I've seen around Method I or even Method V.
 

Even 4d6 is likely to stomp 5Es other stat generation systems, which are 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 (place by taste) and a point buy that doesn't let you take stats above 15.

The array you give has an average value of 12.
4d6 drop lowest has, if I recall correctly, an average of 12.24

So, I'm not sure how that's a "stomp". Taken straight, 4d6 drop lowest is, of course, more likely to generate high numbers - but it is also more likely to generate *low* numbers.

From there, it isn't an issue of how good the stats are, but how good the player is at dumping the low stats, and how bad the GM is at challenging those dump stats so that it matters to the player.
 

Now, if randomness was truly valued, that should not be true. We should see the majority of characters right in or around the point buy value. The mean should line up pretty close to the same value. But, most likely, it won't. The mean and the average will both be well above the standard point buy value.

Which pretty much demonstrates Celembrim's point that player's don't actually value randomness, they just want to have higher point buy values and still be able to say that they "earned" them.

If the group hasn't played with point buy, they can't be trying to beat point buy, because they will not have internalized the results of point buy.

The above seems based on the false assumption that a player *cannot* want two things. You state it as one, or the other- they want high stats, or they want randomness, and apparently it is impossible for them to want both. This creates a false dichotomy. Players do not generally think in those clearly defined ways when they are making their choices - they have the more normal mix of desires present in humans, which don't necessarily lead to a coherent result that fits neatly into your little boxes of analysis.

As I already said upthread - there is such a thing as wanting *tailored* randomness.

There is wanting high stats. There is wanting randomness. These two can be orthogonal, when you remember that the effects of random generation are not just about whether you match the recommended point buy or array.
 
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