Chess is not an RPG: The Illusion of Game Balance

Janx

Hero
On Facebook, Benoist Poire posted a long response to Wick's blog... with Wick replying. It is worth a read. You can read it here.

i like that guy's counter-arguments.

I like a lot of different aspects of D&D. So if I had an RPG that was finely tuned for story-telling and it disposed of other parts of D&D, I might not be happy with that game, even though i favor story-telling as an outcome of playing and RPG.

I'd be worried that a game that had no equipment lists, and allowed for teacups and thumbs to commonly be used as weapons would actually detract from setting integrity. Suddenly, any silly thing could be a weapon.
 

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Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
That's not a fallacy, it's simple fact. I've run many, many games with wide power spreads where the players still all had plenty of fun. Or look at games like Ars Magica where party power imbalances are built right into the system. Somehow a lot of people still love and play the game anyway. I never really heard balance whines until the folks started trying to bring MMO ideas into RPGs. That's fine for MMO's; balance really is important there - there's no DM. But for RPG's it's just not. I've seen far more fun removed from RPGs in the name of balance then has ever been added.
Ah yes, because every concern that you don't personally share is a whine. And hey, I love to hear ttrpgers blame perceived problems on other wildly successful game mediums. It's so hipster, and makes me so proud to be a ttrpger.

Anyhow, if you had bothered to glance at the second page, you would have noticed my reply to a reply that could have been a close paraphrase of yours:

I know that when I get in a car, all that really matters in the end is getting from point A to point B. I don't need to drive super-fast like a race driver does, because racing is a different activity with different goals. I also know that if I'm driving a poorly engineered car, there's a higher chance I won't get to point B.

So yeah, engineering matters for cars and balance matters for games. Unless of course I'm an automotive enthusiast, and I enjoy DYIing in the middle of my trip.
To expand my analogy a bit, I'm sure that people got around in model-Ts, and I know that gamers manage to have fun with extremely imbalanced games. Doesn't mean that an engineer should aspire to antique automobiles, or that game writers should aspire to...sharpie-smudged rulebooks, or whatever it is that Wick is holding up as the platonic ideal of all that is good and holy in rpg-dom.
 

Celebrim

Legend
That's not a fallacy, it's simple fact.

We'll have to disagree about which facts are obvious then.

I've run many, many games with wide power spreads where the players still all had plenty of fun. Or look at games like Ars Magica where party power imbalances are built right into the system.

But those two statements don't necessarily support the claim that balance is unimportant because the GM can ensure everyone has fun.

Somehow a lot of people still love and play the game anyway.

I would argue that they love and play the game because either the game itself addresses story balance in some fashion (the 'troupe' system) or else because the game master or group addresses the game systems lack of story balance by imposing a lot of unwritten house rules on the system. When you examine these games in play, you find that characters disadvantaged by power achieve story importance via unwritten character powers that the GM imposes and respects. For example, you may observe that per the results of play, some seemingly weak character has figuratively written on his character sheet something to the effect of "If it is funny, it works." or "If a favorable coincidence happens, it happens to me." Or often you have an unwritten rule like, "If a player isn't having fun, the GM throws him a bone."

Being unwritten components of the system, does not make them less important aspects of play at a particular table. It just makes them more difficult to translate between tables.

In other words, the GM is often desperately creating balance where none otherwise exists. Even then, that's not always sufficient. Consider how Ars Magica evolved and fleshed out the notion of a grog as a viable player character to make a player who had took a grog role have more interesting things to do and a greater role in the story. Or you may have a game triumphing despite its rules, not because of them, only to find that in the long run its depending only on novelty and continual game reboots as people keep trying to have the game they want to have, not the game that they are getting.

I never really heard balance whines until the folks started trying to bring MMO ideas into RPGs.

Just because you personally don't have the experience, doesn't mean that your experience is indicative of anything on a wider scale. One of the main reasons I have found all of White Wolf's story teller games utterly dysfunctional in play is that they had no balance. A player that created his character in an optimal fashion could utterly dominate play, and given the dark themes of the setting and the conflicts implied by it, this amounted to utterly dominating the other players. This required basically that non-optimal characters built primarily from a story perspective have stories that involved them being abused, dominated, and forced into submission of characters with more raw power. LARPs in particular had this sort of problem in spades and required extremely tight control by the referees over what sort of characters which though legal could be allowed into play. People had a lot of fun, but everything was always balanced on the knife edge of destruction and only herculean efforts by story tellers or story telling staff kept everything from going off the rails. Things only got worse when it became usual for players to want to play characters from different source books. Even when players were generally cooperative, White Wolf stories tend to get undermined by the lack of balance and the fact that the balance (such as it is) isn't interesting. For that matter, I had even more extreme problems with Amber diceless gaming for the exact same reasons.

Honestly, if you never heard of balance problems prior to recent comparison with MMO's, then I can only conclude your primary experience of role playing was with a small group of close friends whose unspoken social contract establishes base rules for how story will be shared regardless of system.

But for RPG's it's just not. I've seen far more fun removed from RPGs in the name of balance then has ever been added.

This vague anecdote doesn't inspire confidence, and in any event, it's just an anecdote. I would say the exact opposite. Virtually every time I've seen a session move on the scale from 'meh' to 'unfun', violation of the Fundamental Law has been the core issue. Rules can be meh. Stories can be virtually nonexistent and if existent make pulp fiction look classy, coherent, and well framed, but if you have a player who with or without the blessings of the rules violates the fundamental rule "Thou Shalt Not Be Good At Everything", then your game is crap.

Going a bit further into my assertion, I honestly believe that it's the lack of this precise game component that is responsible for older children and certainly adults eventually giving up on the notion of role playing as a pastime. All small children naturally role play. The way small children get away with it is that they aren't actually playing together, but playing beside each other. Contradictions with each other's story and incoherence and continual changes in the fictional positioning and the fact that the story doesn't really advance doesn't bother small children. Eventually as they get older and their intellects mature, and their social skills and ambitions increase, and their imaginations soar, the frustrations and arguments as players jockey for theme, fictional positioning, story direction, and ultimately rank in the social hierarchy of players drives people away from such pastime. What's missing is precisely balance. It's balance that made RPing into a something adults could do together. And the reasons and ways White Wolf campaigns in my experience tended to break down were precise mirrors of how elementary school age RPGs tended to break down, precisely because the systems actually failed to assist with balance sufficiently.
 
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Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
On Facebook, Benoist Poire posted a long response to Wick's blog... with Wick replying. It is worth a read. You can read it here.
Poire is much more coherent than Wick, and makes some good points.

Benoist Poire said:
The richness of role-playing games comes from the fact that the concept is hard to pin down. The success of Dungeons & Dragons comes in part from the fact it appeals to different tastes and play styles, that it can be a different thing to different people around a game table. It isn't a “board game” or a “storytelling game” or any of those things. It's a role-playing game, which implies all these different bits and pieces of game design inherited from different types of games, war games, board games, many different games, all mashed together to create a set of tools that inspires people and helps them come up with the worlds of their own imagination.
I like this one in particular. I've been known to say that D&D's success is in part thanks to the same thing that has made the Bible successful: Appeal to a wide and diverse audience. And Poire nails it much more eloquently than I do. :)
 

I still haven't written my essay(s), but I think the author misses the same thing that virtually everyone does.

There is a difference between an activity of role-playing and a role-playing game.

Many "role-playing games" are not, in fact, "games" at all.
 

DaveMage

Slumbering in Tsar
The article really seems to be much ado about nothing - in that after reading it, my reaction is...nothing. I can see how his point would be relevant in one context - if you want to create a story-based RPG, then don't worry about game-balancing mechanics. Beyond that, I'm not sure it's really worthy of discussion - especially in a D&D context. It's just advice.
 

Bochi

First Post
Wick's assumption that a role-playing game is primarily about story-telling is dubious. One could easily get up a counter-argument that a story-telling game is not a role-playing game. One of the features of RPG's that old schoolers in particular bang on about is that the story emerged out of the play, rather than driving the play: the sandbox imposes an environment, and the story is what the characters did in it.

D&D has strong wargame simulation roots but very rapidly it becomes a simulation of being a thief, mage, adventurer, hero, elf etc. Celebrim's rule "Thou shalt not be good at everything" is written all over early games from D&D to Traveller and Runequest: even things like alignment systems are ways of restricting activity while encouraging role-play: you have to find a reason not to do the optimal thing that is character based (again, it's not about story-telling but about role-playing regardless of the story you might want to tell). And if 1e/2e is being singled out for being not-RPG, I am not sure what the rules in 1e penalizing players who act out of role, or the xp system in 2e for rewarding actions taken in role (casters score for casting, fighters score for fighting, thieves score for thieving) are doing if they are not there to enforce a degree of role-playing.
 

occam

Adventurer
I think he was referring more to improvisational acting than roleplaying games.

Agreed. If I'm pretending to be someone I'm not, thinking through imaginary situations under circumstances I will never experience, how am I not playing a role, whether or not I'm speaking in character, or making suboptimal decisions for character reasons, or whatever else encompasses "roleplaying" in the author's view? If you're pretending to be a dwarf barbarian, or an investigator of the supernatural, or an ace star pilot, you're playing a role in a game. The author's definition of "roleplaying" is far too narrow, and is at best a subset of what is traditionally meant by the term as used in RPGs. You can talk about what that is, and about how different games promote it or don't, but you can't legitimately claim it as the universal meaning of "roleplaying".
 

Everyone calling John Wick "the author" suggests to me that a number of posters don't realize that he's actually an accomplished game designer, albeit definitely closer to the rules-lite, story-game end of the spectrum. (He did not design, say, GURPS or Champions.)

And maybe I misread the piece last night, but I didn't see him telling you that your games that you enjoy are bad, but just that he doesn't believe most of the crunch in game systems has a lot of benefit and challenges the reader to try it his way. Even if you have different tastes, the idea of dumping rules that don't do anything for you is pretty sound advice, with a long history in RPGs. (Weapon speed, weapon type and encumbrance rules were probably skimmed over by 95+ percent of 1E players back in the day, for instance.)

Some people are reacting precisely because they know John Wick and what he's written before. The article talks about a lot of stuff in a "this is bad" context and even includes examples that are both counter-intuitive to my sense of fun but also indicative that his style of game is decidedly different than the form I enjoy. Nothing wrong with that; I just take umbrage at the idea that his form/style is superior to mine.
 

Paraxis

Explorer
I disagree with pretty much all of what he said.

Balance is the most important thing to me in a roleplaying game.

He seems to be very story driven or narrativist when it comes to playing, I am more about the game part. There are plenty of narratives fantasy games he can play instead of D&D, like Dungeonworld, but he uses the whole article to tell people they are having bad wrong fun.

If this was a forum post instead of a someone blog, I would think they were just trolling.
 

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