China Mieville on D&D

[eris404]

If he doesn't put as much politics in his books as it sounds, then I might enjoy them. I have confidence that I'd dislike CM on a personal level, but that applies to most actors to whose movies I go. Of course, since I like my fantasy firmly separated from technology and loathe Planescape-style plane-hopping, it sounds like the author's politics and their incorporation into the stories are a totally secondary concern to my enjoyment of PSS, et al.

I think Iron Council is probably the most overtly political of his books - one major story element is a political group opposing the government of New Crobuzon and there is another storyline about labor unions and worker strikes. Even though, I think other elements were stronger, such as a love-triangle between the major characters and Judah's magic.

There are lots of steampunk elements in his works - the Remade, for example, are hardened criminals that have had grafts added to them and have been more or less enslaved by the state. I think the comparison to Planescape is a little off, though. In Perdido Street Station, there is some "planeshifting" for lack of a better term, but it's not the focus of the story.

 

[fuindordm]

... but because he sounds as though he takes great pride in inserting those politics in his books. If he can turn "capitalist" into an insult and keep a straight face about it, odds are that there are many similar remarks in the book that would make reading it equivalent to self flagilation -- as much so as reading a book that repeatedly denigrated Christians, or some other belief system I adhere or respect.

If he doesn't put as much politics in his books as it sounds, then I might enjoy them. I have confidence that I'd dislike CM on a personal level, but that applies to most actors to whose movies I go. Of course, since I like my fantasy firmly separated from technology and loathe Planescape-style plane-hopping, it sounds like the author's politics and their incorporation into the stories are a totally secondary concern to my enjoyment of PSS, et al.

I don't find his books in the least bit preachy. On a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is Piers Anthony (completely disinterested) and 10 is Robert Heinlein, I'd put China Mieville at a 3 or a 4. I honestly can't imagine anyone being discomfited by the politics in the book, any more than a modern person reading Dickens would be. Heinlein, on other hand, whose protagonists are all super-competent evangelical libertarians, gives me trouble.

And if I were a loyal monarchist under a wise and generous king, would I find GRR Martin's books offensive? Maybe, but it's more likely I would shrug all the bloodshed off as the product of a fantasy government created by people less civilized than I, and enjoy the story without a second thought.

As for magic and technology mixing... I'd say that in this world magic feels like just another kind of technology most of the time. Practitioners of magic are as highly specialized at scientists are today, for example the protagonist of Iron Council who does nothing but make golems of various kinds.

Definitely no plane-hopping, although in the Scar it's implied that the unnatural diversity of the world has something to do with an extinct race that did something vaguely along those lines. The world of New Corbunzon is aa rather heavily damaged one.

Ben

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I don't find his books in the least bit preachy.

That's encouraging.

And if I were a loyal monarchist under a wise and generous king, would I find GRR Martin's books offensive? Maybe, but it's more likely I would shrug all the bloodshed off as the product of a fantasy government created by people less civilized than I, and enjoy the story without a second thought.

I don't mind politics being a part of the story. Obviously it's possible for an author to describe all sorts of political situations, and "the system" could take any form and leave "the little guy vs. the system" as a compelling read, regardless of how I might personally identify with either the system or the little guy. (I'm certainly no fan of oppressive governments of any stripe.)

The difference, of course, is that I usually don't know the author's politics; off the top of my head the only author I know of whose personal beliefs I could positively finger would be C.S. Lewis. Obviously there are other authors who use politics prominently (Tom Clancy, frex) but I still wouldn't be comfortable trying to pigeon-hole the author personally based on their fiction.

So generally I'm happier when I'm blissfully ignorant of the author's personal politics.

 

[Mercule]

Ditto to Wulf.

 

[Gez]

I haven't read any of CM's books, but from what I've heard, the biggest common point with Planescape is the city of Ribcage. There's a city built in a gigantic ribcage somewhere on the Outlands (one of the portal-town to the lower planes), and there's a similar city (without the portal-town aspect) in PSS.

 

[takyris]

Read PSS and, while I can see where it impressed a lot of other people, it really didn't do anything for me. I'm a creative enough person that you're not going to impress me with cool ideas alone -- you're actually going to have to execute on them, too. CM didn't really do that. He handwaved and used lots of big words and tried to make everything filthy and disgusting and tawdry and vertiginous, but once you get past the enormous purple prose, what you have is a D&D story hour written by a teenage film-noir enthusiast who thought it'd be cool to include bug-people, bird-people, and cactus-people, and make all of them scummy in a different way.

That doesn't make it bad, but that profoundly makes it not my thing.

 

[Ryltar]

Dang, lots of people jumping on Wulf for saying a book doesn't sound like his style. I know it's hurtful when someone says they don't think they'll like something that you adore, but really now...

You are misinterpreting my intentions. I wasn't jumping on Wulf, just trying to understand his reasoning.

--

The connections to Planescape I mentioned weren't literal ones. Do not look for planeshifting, devas, ursinals or stuff like that, because that - for me - is not what PS is all about.

The Bas-Lag trilogy equals PS in that it is frighteningly creative and imaginative, offers unconventional problems and even more unconventional solutions, and is in general *ducks flame* a more "mature" setting than your standard fantasy realm. Take PSS, for example: You've got a giant, sprawling metropolis on the verge (or in the process of) industrialization, filled with lots of diverse (and in part, bizarre) species, all of which are distinct and culturally different without filling any of the traditional niches. Add to that an epic threat, magic of several different sorts, technology, sex and crime, and what you have is as fascinating a setting as it's gonna get.

 

[Pielorinho]

He handwaved and used lots of big words and tried to make everything filthy and disgusting and tawdry and vertiginous, but once you get past the enormous purple prose, what you have is a D&D story hour written by a teenage film-noir enthusiast who thought it'd be cool to include bug-people, bird-people, and cactus-people, and make all of them scummy in a different way.

Wow--I couldn't disagree more. While the bug-people and bird-people and so forth were interesting, there was so much more going on in the book than that, including:
-Problematic relationships between well-drawn characters and between those characters and their cultures. (for example, the relationship between the protagonist and his khepri lover).
-Ruminations on the affect of form on philosophy (viz. the birdmen's almost incomprehensible moral code).
-Beautiful prose: purple prose rarely works, but in this case I thought it was perfect.
-Great spectacle: the riots of the frog-people was wonderful.
-Hints of a grand and novel theory of magic.

I found well-developed characters working in a wonderful plot in an absolutely compelling setting, confronting difficult moral questions.

Yeah, some of his critters have been done before: he's hardly the first person to invent bug-people. But how many bug-people cultures have idiot male members who exist only for procreating with the heads of the female bug-creatures, and who scurry around underfoot like so many thousands of oversized cockroaches? How many bug-people cultures have as their major artform the excretion of beautiful solidified vomit? How many bug-people cultures live in a frightened ghetto, attacked now and then by murderous humans? The devil's in the details with Mieville, and I love the details.

It works similarly for other bits of flash in his books: while not all the flash is explained, I always had the feeling that the explanation was there, and that in a future work he'd delve more into (for example) the vodanyoi, exploring their culture, their artforms, their history.

It just worked for me. Not as a story-hour, but as a full-fledged fantasy novel that broke new ground in a few different directions.

Daniel

 

[Banshee16]

I can't believe I have to repeat this again.

It's not the book, it's the AUTHOR.

The comments in that interview are not attributed to a character speaking from the book. Those comments are from the AUTHOR. I find myself, through the comments of the author, utterly uninterested in giving him my money or my time. That has nothing to do with the the proficiency of his writing nor is it a commentary on the quality of the book.

I'm beginning to wonder if the secret to enjoying Mieville is to somehow tied to a staggering lack of reading comprehension.

No. I'm confident that I'm understanding your comments correctly. Your last response has simply reinforced my understanding of what you're trying to say. Reading comprehension is definitely not the issue here. Given the restrictions on taking discussions in political directions, and my belief that everyone has a right to their own opinion, I am not able to say what I'd like to say, so I will simply refrain from pushing the issue any further.

I can say that I disagree, and am disappointed in the reasoning by which you've made your decision, but I'll leave it at that. You've got a right to make that decision, and evidently, nothing anyone says will change that. Don't take this as a personal attack. We apparently have very different ways of looking at things, and we'll agree to disagree.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

I think Iron Council is probably the most overtly political of his books - one major story element is a political group opposing the government of New Crobuzon and there is another storyline about labor unions and worker strikes. Even though, I think other elements were stronger, such as a love-triangle between the major characters and Judah's magic.

There are lots of steampunk elements in his works - the Remade, for example, are hardened criminals that have had grafts added to them and have been more or less enslaved by the state. I think the comparison to Planescape is a little off, though. In Perdido Street Station, there is some "planeshifting" for lack of a better term, but it's not the focus of the story.

I think the comparisons to Planescape come less because of plane shifting, than because of other elements in PSS.

There is the alternate feeling which is grittier, yet more fantastical than typical settings like Greyhawk, Dragonlance, or Forgotten Realms. The almost "dystopian" elements, like a city where things aren't all ideal, telling good and evil apart is not so easy, class struggle, the battle of ideas, the inclusion of a myriad of odd races living together etc.

I personally find many similarities between the judicial and law enforcement systems in New Crobuzon and the nastier aspects of both the Harmonium and Mercykillers. The Sod Killers of post-Faction War Sigil are also very similar.

I find that the inclusion of things like love affairs between radically different species such as Khepri and human, as well as the cooperation of disparate races (ie. cactacae, those water creatures) along class and occupational lines rather than racial lines both remind me very much of the Sigil that I remember.

Those are some of the things that come to mind when I compare the books of China Mieville and Planescape. Are they the same thing, or 100% similar? Of course not. But when you start looking at it, in many ways they have a similar "feel".

Banshee