D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[nevin]

So you think the 5e designers were lying? That they said the game doesn't assume magic items but they didn't really mean it?

of course they assume magic items. I do believe they thought that attunement would solve the problem. But the problem isn't magic items, it isn't power levels, it's a million DM's who all have different expectations of thier game in a new world that keeps telling them they shouldn't mess with the rules they should just be the MMO computer who watches but doesn't adjust the game.

 

[Minigiant]

You have taken your idiosyncratic conception of how the game works and decided that it is the intentional design of the game. No actual evidence supports this.

I've shown evidence

p38 of the DMG
The treasure tables
p136 of XGTE

So you think the 5e designers were lying? That they said the game doesn't assume magic items but they didn't really mean it?

I didn't say they are lying. I said the info was hidden.
It wasn't outright said until XGTE

"Magic items can go from nice to necessary in the rare group that has no spellcasters, no monk, and no NPCs capable of casting magic weapon. Having no magic weapon makes it extremely difficult to overcome the monsters that have resistance or immunity to nonnmagical weapons. In such a game, you'll want to be generous with magic weapons or else aviod using such monsters."

5e was designed that the fighter either has magical equipment or the spellcasters are buffing them.

They upfront say years after the DMG that if you don't want magic items and your casters don't want to be buff-bots, you shouldn't use many of the supernatural monsters that they printed.

5e was designed as Christmas Tree Fighters as the default and make it easy to edit this assumption. But that's how they designed the game.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Of the assorted creatures that are immune to bludgeoning, slashing and piercing damage by nonmagical weapons, it is generally only the were-creatures that can still be hurt with silver weapons.
Liches for example don't have that addendum, so they are as immune to a silver weapon as a steel one.

Ah, the Lich, well in a low-magic game I am ok with that... better find another way if you don't have magic weapons.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I've shown evidence

p38 of the DMG
The treasure tables
p136 of XGTE


I didn't say they are lying. I said the info was hidden.
It wasn't outright said until XGTE

"Magic items can go from nice to necessary in the rare group that has no spellcasters, no monk, and no NPCs capable of casting magic weapon. Having no magic weapon makes it extremely difficult to overcome the monsters that have resistance or immunity to nonnmagical weapons. In such a game, you'll want to be generous with magic weapons or else aviod using such monsters."

5e was designed that the fighter either has magical equipment or the spellcasters are buffing them.

They upfront say years after the DMG that if you don't want magic items and your casters don't want to be buff-bots, you shouldn't use many of the supernatural monsters that they printed.

5e was designed as Christmas Tree Fighters as the default and make it easy to edit this assumption. But that's how they designed the game.

If they say the game doesn't assume magic items, and that isn't true, then they either lied or were mistaken. Which is it? Ignorance or malice?

 

[nevin]

I honestly think the implementation of magic weapon, silver, cold steel etc is broken. I've considered trying out fey only hurt by Cold steel weapons. Lycanthropes only hurt by silver, etc. It would definitely change how scared people would be of fey and Lycanthropes and other odd ball creatures that their big shiny toys won't hurt.

 

[nevin]

If they say the game doesn't assume magic items, and that isn't true, then they either lied or were mistaken. Which is it? Ignorance or malice?

The game can be played without magic items............FACT. But you can't fight most of the creatures in the monster manuals without magic.........FACT. So you can play a game without any magic items at all. I don't recall them saying you could do everything in the game without magic items. They aren't going to tell people that like nitty gritty low magic games that thier game sucks for those people. That would be terrible marketing. But it is the truth. But I haven't seen any lies actually proven. Just assumptions that they meant more than they actually said.

 

[Mort]

I honestly think the implementation of magic weapon, silver, cold steel etc is broken. I've considered trying out fey only hurt by Cold steel weapons. Lycanthropes only hurt by silver, etc. It would definitely change how scared people would be of fey and Lycanthropes and other odd ball creatures that their big shiny toys won't hurt.

This works, in theory and if used sparingly. But, otherwise - it just leads to the golf bag of weapons that appeared in 3e.

Further, it tends to inconvenience the martial characters FAR more than the casters. Martials tend to have exactly one way to down a monster - hit it until it's down. Casters have all sorts of solutions that have nothing to do with doing damage.

 

[Minigiant]

If they say the game doesn't assume magic items, and that isn't true, then they either lied or were mistaken. Which is it? Ignorance or malice?

People interpreted what they said wrong.

They said the game math doesn't assume magic items.
The game still assumes the fighter is stacked with magic items or friendly magic buffs.
They also made it easy to play without the items or buffs. But you can't use most of the middle and high CR monsters if you do that.

It's like being a Vegan at the burger joint. You can eat there but there's only one vegan option.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The game can be played without magic items............FACT. But you can't fight most of the creatures in the monster manuals without magic.........FACT. So you can play a game without any magic items at all. I don't recall them saying you could do everything in the game without magic items. They aren't going to tell people that like nitty gritty low magic games that thier game sucks for those people. That would be terrible marketing. But it is the truth. But I haven't seen any lies actually proven. Just assumptions that they meant more than they actually said.

They specifically said in Xanathar's that the situation where magic items become borderline necessary is very rare. No spellcasters, no monks, no NPCs to cast Magic Weapon. That certainly has been very rare in my experience, but maybe you're coming from a different perspective.

 

[DND_Reborn]

ok guys I played in a 12 level game I've been in for awhile. The barbarian put on his helm of teleportation grabbed a siege engine and teleported up above two airships and dropped the siege engine. Exploding the airship all it's cargo of bombs and taking out the other airship behind it. Completely overshadowing my mages big plan too deal with them. Completely F'd the DM's narrative and direction of the game. with his underpowered barbarian who could stand next to the siege engine while 8 martials and a caster attacked him. It's a shame martials suck.

If your problem with Wizards is they mess with the narrative and that make them too powerful then IMO your problem is you want a game on rails. I gaurrantee our DM's Empire will somewhere down the road attempt to recapture the narrative. That's what every high level game I've ever heard anyone reminice about loved. They got to drive at least once in the big epic game. Same for any other system I've talked with people about. If your rules straight Jacket the players so the DM has an easier time of it the things you lose are fun and trust.

So, a whole lot of DM fiat going on here I think...

First, they're using a helm of teleportation, which is fine, but they are basically using a magic item (rare at that) to mimic what your party's wizard (also 12th level I am guessing?) doesn't even have the spell to do and isn't even a high enough level to do it.

One of the issues in this thread would be for the barbarian to do this without the helm. Now, if they Hulked the siege engine and threw it up to hit an airship and take it out, that would be different.

Second, not sure from how you wrote it but you can't teleport a PC with an object, it is or; you and up to eight creatures OR an object. If the barbarian did, in fact, just send the object, how did the DM determine your placement was optimal enough to do what happened? If the barbarian went with it, how did you survive the fall?

Third, how big is this siege engine? If they are the Large Object variety, how big was the airship? I would think rather small if a large object was enough to explode its cargo of bombs, especially if there were enough bombs to also talk about another airship behind it.

Anyway, I'm not saying what happened wasn't probably cool as sh!t, but for the purpose of the issues brought up in the thread, the narrative really shows what some people don't want.